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#1
Old 19-05-2011, 22:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
I'm interested to hear points about the role and the important attributes that a player should have to be a top primary soldier or at least an effective primary soldier.
#2
Old 19-05-2011, 22:25
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Putting it back to you first (before the mentors have a crack).

What's the inspiration for the thread? Looking to play solly, or just curious to have a discussion (which is ok as well)?

How you respond will (hopefully) set the tone for this thread, and help the mentors to give you more relevant advice.
#3
Old 19-05-2011, 22:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
I'm just looking for some input from top soldiers as to how they see the role.

I know what a medic expects from a primary: total awareness, anticipation of situations and react before things actually play out, a strong voice that can give directions quickly and clearly, solid and consistant ground aim (middys are good but damage output is more important).

Primary Soldiers are leaders and should be able to inspire their team mates to play at their best without hesitation, this can be through comms and/or through their own performance.

As a medic I can spot a good primary solly and I know pretty well why, but I haven't been able to actually execute the role that well personally as my postioning tends to let me down, and I fail to be able to communicate my intentions effectively to my team-mates so they can mop up my damage or flank at the right time. That and my aim is very inconsistant.

But being the man in front is harder than it seems and it takes a certain type of player to be able to do it right.

Thats my view anyway I wanted to get others thoughts mainly from guys I would consider good primarys, without naming any names.
#4
Old 19-05-2011, 22:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy
While i cant claim to be an expert primary soldier, it is a role quite close to my interest and the one I have played the most after scout, with at least a few hundred hours at a low div1 or below level.

Setting aside all the skills a soldier should have in general (aim, positioning, ammo management) The Primary Soldier's job is to always be part of the core of the team. The location of the primary with his medic is synonymous with the location of the 'team', while other players (scouts) finger off to probe / harrass and flank. By team core i essentially mean the primary/medic combo plus at least 1 more - usually a demo, maybe also a mopping scout. This sort of core mentality is very important, because except for swatting pesky scouts at close range on your medic, the primary soldier generally should only ever be shooting targets that other people are also shooting.

Alone a soldier medic are reliable to stay alive, but without a dps partner they simply arnt deadly. Regardless of whether it is the primary calling his demo to focus fire with him, or the primary finishing off other opponents mid (or post) 1v1, if the primary isn't focus firing, then no-one is, and damage will be done but targets wont die.

Inside the core of a team:
  • the demo focuses on doing stupid amount of damage while staying alive.
  • the medic tries to keep the demo and primary together, and alive, buffering others that stop by for a buff.
  • the primary directs the attention of the team and turns his damage into kills, or jumps and support spams someone that an ally is combating, or jumps in to stabilize and control ground the aggressive scouts/2ndary bombed to gain.

A few opinions on technical primary soldier points.
  • If a 2ndary commits to some agressive bomb play your choice in the next 5 seconds should most likely be to either be aggressive yourself taking ground in support, or abandon them to a untimely death and consider salvaging a medics life with retreat. A retreat can be easily followed up by a push if the situation changes suddenly.
  • Protecting the medic doesnt mean your tethered to him. rocket jumping is a critical part of the class, use it.
  • The medic and primary between them need to be fully aware of what angles are threatening to the medics life. But a medic expecting total awareness is unreasonable. They do have better shit to do than be your personal gun 24/7. In much of the current metagame, the medics life is as much the responsibility of the scouts as it is the primary soldier (clueless scouts take note!) However between the 2 of your nothing should be unnoticed, thus if the primary doesnt see everything, he need to be queued sharply into hearing the medic. A medic and primary communicating on a personal level above the rest of the team calls is important.
  • To reiterate point as above, personally i think the primary soldier need to know the location at all times of these : his medic, his demoman, their medic demoman primary. Scouts tracking is simply not something worth putting on his plate, other people (his medic/scouts) should appraise him of this so he can deal with it when its a real threat and know which flanks may be open - not before.
  • If your medic dies, the correct response in many cases is to respond liek a hell wrathful scorned lover and kill or die quickly. No heals is only a disadvantage overtime, perhaps you can even the odds before the advantage is overwhelming.
  • A medic respawn must start grinding uber asap. go pick him up or make sure he wont need you.
  • A sticky trap that kills you medic is your fault 90% of the time, tell him about it, but may not always need to stop for 10 seconds to clear it.
  • Your first 2 rockets are expendable for good focus fire spam, but caution to reduce yourself to 4 unloaded rockets unless they are required for a kill, and you wont suddenly need them in a pinch to save your medic.
  • As your said good ground aim (dpeth perception) is the crux of good damage spam as a soldier. against lone targets shotgun finishing is good, but requires confident and consistent aim with both.
  • When your rocket jump for a kill, know how many rocket you have loaded. If its < 3 you should probably wait, unless your keen on flying shotgun antics.
Last edited by hatchet; 19-05-2011 at 22:28.
#5
Old 19-05-2011, 22:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
but I haven't been able to actually execute the role that well personally as my postioning tends to let me down, and I fail to be able to communicate my intentions effectively to my team-mates so they can mop up my damage or flank at the right time. That and my aim is very inconsistant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy
If you know your positioning is letting you down, then that means you know what is and isnt good positioning. Try and ask yourself why you let yourself get in bad spots. Is it mechanics (fall off high spots and fail rocketjumps) or is it a product of indecisive play (not knowing where you want to go)?

Rocket-jumps to safe high vantage points are your friend, dont sit up the medics arse. A good way to try and become more decisive position wise at the start is in any battle (rollout) have essentially 2 modes/spots you want to be. One spot is the perfect spot to spam from, then other spot is where you your next perfect spam spot, if only you could get there without dying (because their soldiers are probably there right now!) If the battle is even hold ground. If you ever see a chance to get to fixed location 2, rocket jump there ASAP. then stay there. Avoid leaving your super good spot unless its 100% apparent you need to drop - never pussy out to a bad spot without committing to getting to safety. many round are lost by soldiers sitting somewhere asking if they should drop for too long.

communicate my intentions effectively: seems to reiterate that you don't know what you want to do! otherwise just try saying this every time.
"everyone shoot the insert_most_forward_player_and/or_demoman here now!"

"That and my aim is very inconsistant": cya in ammomod lol ^_^.
#6
Old 19-05-2011, 22:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
Thanks No Mercy all good stuff there.

When I said total awareness I should have qualified that with, total awareness in the immediate area of the combo AND based on info called by other players, or even not called.

eg. after sucessful push through choke of badlands mid to spire area the combo is alive and we have 2 players down (scout, sol). Other team has lost choke battle and are 3 players down (demo, sol, scout). If I hadn't heard anything been called about the resup/house area I would be calling our roaming players to check that area and my primary to be EXPECTING a suicide attack from a scout.
Just a simple example to illustrate awareness.

I think that kind of situation is a no-brainer and prolly should be said as total logic awareness. So awareness of the area your in and its logical immediate connections to where you are.
#7
Old 19-05-2011, 22:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
Would be great to hear points from other sollys from div1...

Even if its just specifics about certain aspects of the role.

Any differences from playing primary now as to say a couple of years ago?
#8
Old 19-05-2011, 22:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kocka
not sure it has been covered,
imo the chemistry between you and your medic is very important in terms of what you can and cannot do

over extend to some point without endangering your medic, certain maps, certain situations
split second decisions to be aggressive or not
the chemistry between you and your medic i believe determines on how you approach your play style as the primary
on top of all that has been said as your primary role

just my experience, thought id share
i know i am not a mentor so you can ignore ;[
#9
Old 19-05-2011, 22:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsk
few things from my experiences

-- I never really wasted too much thought on the safety of the medic in most situations. I had a very competent medic(s) and I figured they can worry about their safety themselves and say something if there was a problem. Obviously you can't just be a retard and run anywhere but you also need to focus on your own position and targets, let the medic make their own decisions after you tell them what you're doing.

-- When attacking a point with ubers on both teams, it is not particularly important (imo) to stay alive after the uber - the medic has more useful players to heal. When defending, staying alive is more important (duh).

-- Remember that if you're not taking any damage, it doesn't mean you're necessarily an amazing player. If their team isn't shooting at you, they are probably killing someone else on your team who doesn't have a medic healing them.
#10
Old 19-05-2011, 22:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
Thanks nsk!!!

I really was just wanting to get quality feedback in this discussion, as its a role that imo needs its own thread in the mentor forum.

great points.
#11
Old 19-05-2011, 23:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsk View Post
-- Remember that if you're not taking any damage, it doesn't mean you're necessarily an amazing player. If their team isn't shooting at you, they are probably killing someone else on your team who doesn't have a medic healing them.
I would really emphasise this point.

As a pocket solider you are generally the lowest-priority target for the other team, while your medic usually ensures you sit on 300. It is very important to pose enough of a threat that you draw the fire/attention of multiple players, to make use of that healing. The hard part is learning to gauge when things are getting too dangerous, so that you can then fall back to your safe spamming spot/slow your pushing as your team push forward.

A pocket soldier who sits in good spamming positions the whole rollout/push is just getting his teammates killed.


I know a lot of teams play this way(we do -_-): but in my opinion using your roaming-classes to initiate aggressive moves and having your combo follow up is doing things completely ass backwards.
Last edited by blank; 19-05-2011 at 23:11.
#12
Old 19-05-2011, 23:26
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i havent played in that many teams over the past 3 years but the two primary soldiers who stood out for me were quite aggressive, led the team in the pushes and were essentially the heart of the team. thats really the most important point i can make because as primary if you arent aggressive (and i dont mean lol gunboats ijumpu) you are just wasting your heals. smart aggressive primarys >>> primarys who sit there and wait for the other team to come to them.

also learn how to use your shotgun
#13
Old 20-05-2011, 01:17
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Good stuff by No Mercy above, agree (from a medic pov) with everything he said.

I'd take Nesk's first comment "I never really wasted too much thought on the safety of the medic in most situations." with the knowledge that Nesk played in the best TF2 team in Australia. If your scouts are doing their jobs you shouldn't need to worry about your medic's safety, he'll tell you if he feels unsafe or a scout has gotten through. Just don't go off rj'ing around like a spastic chasing kills, either.
Last edited by Darien; 20-05-2011 at 01:18.
#14
Old 20-05-2011, 10:04
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I think Nesk's comment about the medic is more emphasising what kocka said about having chemistry with your medic. Nesk had great medics to work with, but he did his job in being aware of his position and the threats in the vicinity and more importantly doing damage to the other team.
The medics "safety" is a responsibility of the whole team including the med, the team fulfilling their roles successfully ensures that safety.

btw my other name is Ask A Question Forum
#15
Old 21-05-2011, 00:40
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Please keep the advice coming
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#16
Old 21-05-2011, 02:03
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look around a lot. a LOT
ALL THE TIME
RAISE YOUR SENSITIVITY IF YOU FIND IT TOO HARD
STOP PLAYING MGE AND JOIN A PUB AND JUST CONSTANTLY LOOK AROUND
IM NOT EVEN KIDDING
#17
Old 21-05-2011, 03:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baf View Post
look around a lot. a LOT
ALL THE TIME
RAISE YOUR SENSITIVITY IF YOU FIND IT TOO HARD
STOP PLAYING MGE AND JOIN A PUB AND JUST CONSTANTLY LOOK AROUND
IM NOT EVEN KIDDING
This is very true, awareness is better than aim to an extent as your team mates will help you clean up any stray players bombing your medic.
#18
Old 21-05-2011, 15:39
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honestly could be the best advice to give any soldier and just other class in general. If you or your team doesn't have an exact fix on say, scouts, then there is a good chance they are trying to pull some sneaky panda shit.

and if you are focusing on that soldier who is around the corner and down the valley, praying to get a double middie like you did in MGE last night, then chances are that scout(s) are going to come in from behind, rape your medic and you will lose.

edit: adding to the previous points. These days you see a lot of players just simply walking through houses, connectors, etc. but they never seem to check the corners for enemy players lurking.

A recent example I can give of this is Haymo, who was camping our left side connectors to mid on Ashville, he was able to get a 2 shot into our medic and make her drop uber, which subsequently won his team the game. If any of us had bother to look a little to the right we would have seen the scout, instead we were focusing straight ahead on what could be 'outside'.
Last edited by JiNxXx; 21-05-2011 at 15:46.
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#19
Old 21-05-2011, 16:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiNxXx View Post
honestly could be the best advice to give any soldier and just other class in general. If you or your team doesn't have an exact fix on say, scouts, then there is a good chance they are trying to pull some sneaky panda shit.

These days you see a lot of players just simply walking through houses, connectors, etc. but they never seem to check the corners for enemy players lurking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQPVf...eature=related
#20
Old 21-05-2011, 17:09
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This should help too
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