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#1
Old 21-12-2011, 02:18
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An interesting dynamic about attacking spire on badlands is its difficult to use / capitalise on uber advantage.

If you compare uber advantage attacking warehouse on granary to uber advantage attacking badlands spire its obvious that uber is more important attacking warehouse

i.e. 6v6 uber advantage attacking warehouse - you should at least be able to get the point

6v6 uber advantage attacking spire its very difficult to use uber advantage, much lower chance of success

you could say player advantage is more important

if the defending team has uber advantage is that different?

How should this affect the way your team plays?
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#2
Old 21-12-2011, 05:24
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#3
Old 21-12-2011, 15:02
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I always try and tell my guys that when when we have uber advantage attacking spire (especially after winning mid) that at the very least 1 scout (usually a soldier as well) is going to try and make me pop uber/kill me.

So play tight around me (demo stickies house 1 scout plays around combo blah blah). Kill those players and you now have a 1-2 player advantage worse case scenario... they cant hold forward effectively and your uber advantage can possibly be used on last (if it wasn't popped).

If no play happens you know they are not defending spire and holding forward. So i walk up spire and we force them out from there.

#dumbmedic opinion here
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#4
Old 22-12-2011, 01:40
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If the other team suicides at you thats all well and good, but a smart team will position themselves in pocket or on the balcony where their medic is relatively safe from a head on assault and they are keeping stickies and presence on the spire.

With large uber advantage if they hold pocket rushing through lower lobby to pincer their medic is viable; need other people entering the fight from perch->pocket also, but by no means a guarenteed success (if theyre smart they will just wheel around to grey bridge).

If they are stacking balcony too much jumping soldiers on their heads from grey bridge is potent, but again having high health and getting into this position is not easy.

I think you're better off working the spire point hunting kills on their defenders and slowly creeping cap time on the spire (jumping soldiers and scouts) looking for player advantage, while the combo attempts to creep ground in the ulikely hope that poor enemy positioning will yeild a chance to use uber and punish them.

Quote:
If no play happens you know they are not defending spire and holding forward. So i walk up spire and we force them out from there.
Premeditated climbing spire when there is less resistance is very vulnerable to suprise attackers from balcony however if you see the opportunity its usually the best way to get to upper lobby and use your uber adv before its gone.

EDIT: the best point to take away from this is that it is not always simple taking spire as the attackers. If your medic were to die around spire on defense would it be better to retreat to last or keep fighting?
Last edited by No Mercy; 22-12-2011 at 01:42.
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#5
Old 22-12-2011, 11:07
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I would assume that pushing 6v6 would be an extension of overtaking ressup when you push corner... the roamer and 1 scout would be pressuring via dropdown/bottom lobby and the 2nd scout would be trying to get onto spire and start the cap with the demo and pocket soldier supporting him.

#dumbmedic opinion here
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#6
Old 22-12-2011, 14:56
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I think usefulness of uber-advantage defending spire depends on:

1. Is the other team attempting to capture spire with uber disadvantage?
2. How many players do you have alive relative to other team (and as an addon which classes)
3. Where are you holding spire from?
4. How large is the advantage?

Those 4 things can drastically impact how you will use the advantage and IF you can use the advantage at alll
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#7
Old 31-12-2011, 05:04
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I will get to this soon enough
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#8
Old 14-01-2012, 05:14
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I think you should be aggressive with your demoman attacking spire with uber advantage
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#9
Old 14-01-2012, 15:24
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pretty hungover so not sure how much sense this will make.

if i had uber advantage attacking spire, i'd not be a fucking pussy and i'd go take their pocket. you do this because 90% of teams defend spire from pocket and the other 10% from balc, both scenarios you should be able to use uber to at least get spire capped.

scouts (unless your name is rep), this is what you should be doing, fucking idiots stop going up dropdown trying to duel on lobby. you are ensuring your team caps spire when they use uber.

the other team cannot stop spire being capped by scouts if you are ubering in their face on balc/pocket. if they do you are just flat out fucking bad and don't even go practice MGE, go practice 2fort.

in this scenario, worst case you should have spire capped with 100% uber disadv and no one on the enemy team dead. they still need to try use uber advantage to retake spire which would be pretty fucking difficult as long as your teams positioning is good and your demoman's alive (why is he dead if you just used uber?).

edit: best case obviously you kill their medic/team in pocket and are pushing last
Last edited by subtitled; 14-01-2012 at 15:25.
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#10
Old 14-01-2012, 15:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
I think you should be aggressive with your demoman attacking spire with uber advantage
Please explain how you are going to use the uber advantage effectively. How are you going to be aggresive against the other team without wasting your uber. I would love to hear your explanation.

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#11
Old 14-01-2012, 16:26
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I think it depends on how aggressively they are defending. Usually teams that are defending in this situation will just want to force your uber and get out as opposed to actually defending spire.

IF they are showing presence in pocket I would have our demoman make an aggressive move (this means he jumps into their team) and go for KILLS, maybe you can also send players through the main door; its a good idea to multi uber with uber advantage

best case scenario: you have capped spire and are pushing last with player advantage
Last edited by Darien; 14-01-2012 at 17:17.
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#12
Old 14-01-2012, 16:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtitled View Post
pretty hungover so not sure how much sense this will make.

if i had uber advantage attacking spire, i'd not be a fucking pussy and i'd go take their pocket. you do this because 90% of teams defend spire from pocket and the other 10% from balc, both scenarios you should be able to use uber to at least get spire capped.

scouts (unless your name is rep), this is what you should be doing, fucking idiots stop going up dropdown trying to duel on lobby. you are ensuring your team caps spire when they use uber.

the other team cannot stop spire being capped by scouts if you are ubering in their face on balc/pocket. if they do you are just flat out fucking bad and don't even go practice MGE, go practice 2fort.

in this scenario, worst case you should have spire capped with 100% uber disadv and no one on the enemy team dead. they still need to try use uber advantage to retake spire which would be pretty fucking difficult as long as your teams positioning is good and your demoman's alive (why is he dead if you just used uber?).

edit: best case obviously you kill their medic/team in pocket and are pushing last
Pretty much spot on post by terry here. You should be aiming to take enough positioning with your uber that you force the majority of the enemy team away from spire, whether they be in pocket or balc (as he has pointed out, 90% of teams hold in pocket these days). If you catch them out of position by going in through stone bridge, thats great and it allows you to possibly catch the medic/demo + more. As he has also stated - you also don't need to necessarily get kills. Spire is REALLY hard to retake - even if they have uber advantage, spire is relatively easier to defend comparing to retaking. If they end up ubering in return after you have taken spire, you've just received uber advantage AGAIN and you should be able to use this to attack last with the relative ease of defending spire compared to atacking.

As terry also stated, for the love of fuck don't lose your demoman. Also no trolling in this thread thanks moody - leave the quarreling to general discussion/ other forums.
Last edited by yuki; 14-01-2012 at 16:37.
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#13
Old 14-01-2012, 16:54
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This post for moody (i agree 100% with yuki/subtitled, spire is hard to retake, scouts are incredibly strong on the point, etc).

If your demoman jumps into their team then he will die. Without a demoman, you are not going to cap spire. You aren't using your advantage effectively by jumping the demoman at the enemy team because the medic can't keep up with him for the uber to be effective.

Teams that let the enemy demoman AND medic get close enough to jump at them WITH uber are not playing spire correctly and need their spire soldier to change his gameplan (force the uber early from high ground???)

Sending players through main door is risky because you're likely to have your combo or main door players get flanked and killed. It's a horrible choke point, easily watched from 3 angles (pocket/resupply/upper lobby) and players behind are easily dealt with since they are cut off from the combo. Like it can work if people aren't watching it, or forget about the players behind, but its not really the best option because you are assuming the enemy is bad and isn't going to punish you for doing it.

I agree with multi-ubering with advantage, but the fact is you aren't likely to get close enough to the enemy team without getting your uber forced and then being unable to actually kill anything because of the myriad number of options for players to get away on spire.

Personally i think resupply pushes are better with uber advantage because you can have your secondary and scout lockdown resupply, have your demoman sticky inside lower lobby and push at the enemy team across greybridge with a scout/soldier uber. You are close enough to deal with players, their escape options are severely limited, and you force the enemy team into an uncomfortable situation.

My idea has flaws though, the demoman isn't defended in lower lobby so he can get picked easily by a secondary or whatnot from spire, people in resupply could eventually beat the scout/soldier, doesn't work against a balcony hold and combo can't deal with highground players because the demoman is lower lobby.
Last edited by Cole; 14-01-2012 at 16:56. Reason: It's rude to troll newbies, redacted a bit of post.
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#14
Old 14-01-2012, 17:10
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you can make the jump when you're practically behind/right of spire before they even see you coming

your demoman wont die because he is being ubered and your medic can definitely keep up with him

no one is going to be waiting for something to come underneath due to the fact that they are trying to defend vs players capping

its easy to chase into lobby with your uber for kills (why i suggested you send players underneath)

good try
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Old 14-01-2012, 17:57
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hi lovescream

A soldier on point will see people coming from corner, why are you assuming that your opponents aren't competent players?

Thats true, except the soldier on the point will see people coming from corner and be able to force the uber early, and the jump needed to actually be effective is long enough to stop a medic from being able to keep up with a demoman trying to kill people.

I thought you were talking about people just walking into the main door, there wasn't any mention of sneaking from under into main door. What are people from resupply doing anyway then, if your team is pushing around corner why are they watching house and not under? Once again you are assuming your competition is dumb and doesnt watch multiple areas.

Yes its easy to chase into lobby with uber for kills, but you won't have enough ubercharge to do that because you'll get forced from a much farther distance away!

I don't understand why you think its a good idea to assume your competition is going to be stupid and then make choices based on that. You should always hold your opponents in high regard and assume that they are equal or better than you are.
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#16
Old 14-01-2012, 18:04
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chookais bad chooka is offline aka Moody, chooka x
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my slut team did exactly what I am saying vs iM last night killed 4 players and capped last

explain?

perhaps will make a video

termo: he is a low div player and has very little if any understanding of the game
termo: everything is perfect in the little scenario he has in his head
termo: but when you have a good demoman make an aggressive move into pocket with uber advantage you are going to get kills
moody: yea

not trying to ARGUE but rather clarify why you are wrong
Last edited by chooka; 14-01-2012 at 18:32.
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