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#1
Old 30-08-2011, 17:13
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hatchet hatchet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
To be a good Medic, does it follow that you have to be a good caller as well? By caller, I mean the person who makes the decisions to push/hold/fall etc. If so, what are good calls to make, and how do you decide on these calls?
#2
Old 30-08-2011, 17:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowt
lets say the situation was 6v6 uber advantage attacking warehouse cp_granary you might call

"lets uber yuki from connector and xyz scout come with"

or

"hey yuki lets take the uber from deep left"

another call might be based on alot of people dying (having disadvantage) making sure your players know the current situation and are reacting correctly to it this way you have two safeguards to make the right move (especially for combo).

"guys we just lost 2 players attacking spire lets get back to mid"

Another one for medic might be based on HP

"everyone's really low HP cool down get medkits"

In general there is two types of calling - stuff based on the situation and then stuff like what people can see etc

"their combo is in pocket"
"they just had a scout go dropdown"

this is what you can see

medic rarely makes calls like that they focus more on situational stuff and HP
#3
Old 30-08-2011, 17:14
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hatchet hatchet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
Oh okay.

I find myself calling enemy positions and if we're losing players AND HP and I now realize it tends to get a bit redundant with what my team is saying.

I prefer to have my primary make the plans for a push but the thing you said about situational calling makes much sense. Thanks
#4
Old 30-08-2011, 17:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy
Ive always felt that where the primary or others may be calling the teams intent and plans for pushing, the medic needs to reaffirm these actions in realtime.

soldier: "were going to push the demo through lower door with uber, scouts come in high right when we go."
...
medic: "ok we've gone through now."

Likewise it is good to important say your own location as medic, especially when your alone or the combo is moving somewhere different, so that roaming players can get a feel for where the combo is if they want a buff, or need to evaluate if theyre in the correct position for support / covering flanks etc.

As bowt says, finally the medic is the the best position to evaluate team health, delegate health packs and call team retreats if things are looking hairy and the fragging bloodlust is clouding other people's sound judgement.

On a more fundamental theorectical level, perfect play requires team unity in decisions, perfect information and good judgement on how to react to any situation. Teams having a delegated caller is an attempt to simplify the team unity process, and that person is usually whoever has the best grasp on understanding advantages and situations. However in reality it is important that everyone learns about situational analysis, ideally beyond their own role in the team. And perfect information is impossible, however calling critical things that you see, even when its blatantly obvious on your screen, but not on someone elses who is elsewhere will help them to make better informed decisions individually. The best example of this is calling the medics location so that a 2ndary soldier planning to bomb/gank him from hiding can time and position his attack better.

What your saying about enemy positions, players and HP is usually fine, i often like to say something to the effect of "its 3v5, should probably drop" when i can tell that my teammates are not reacting correctly because they are likely missing information that should be self evident. However redundancy in calling is not ideal as it will clutter the channel, and if people are routinely saying thoings that were just said by someone else they need to reflect on whether they are actually listening to comms at all, or just mindlessly speaking.

Communication requires listening too!

This guide may help
#5
Old 30-08-2011, 17:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
...the person who makes the decisions to push/hold/fall etc.
No Mercy / bowt have covered the main points. Instead of re-iterating, I'll add that whilst the medic can contribute significantly to a team's in-game decision making (mostly because they have a lot more 'spare time' compared to other players who are focussed on aiming/dealing damage) they aren't always in the best position to be the lead caller, especially during a fight.

For example, consider on viaduct rollout, the medic may be trying to avoid line of sight (where possible) to a sniper. On granary initially, compare a typical medic's position (and view of the fight) compared to say a soldier or scout. While they can monitor deaths for both teams & keep tabs on their own teams hp, they are more reliant (than other members of the team) on info gleaned from allied comms to understand the full situation.

In terms of the decision to fall, the medic has the best idea of your teams hp, but at the same time they might not be in a good position to judge that the other team is equally as tagged or even in a worse position. So the medic might suggest a 'fall out' (because based on their point of view it seems the right decision), but they might need to be overriden by someone who has a better vantage in that particular situation for example.
Last edited by hatchet; 30-08-2011 at 17:49.
#6
Old 30-08-2011, 18:34
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Entirely true by hatchet, i was writing a post that was basically exactly the same as what he said. Your med has the best information regarding the general flow of the fight and the health of your players, but your primary or demoman have the best information as far as combat advantages go.

Have to delegate roles to multiple people since no one person has access to all the information.
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#7
Old 30-08-2011, 19:28
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Before anyone asks, no it wasn't me asking this.

I've always had trouble trying to 'call' as a medic, and by that I mean decisions on pushing/pulling. I've never been able to work out if it's just that I'm shit, that a medic is rarely in a good position to judge advantages in the middle of big fights (and by definition plays more cautiously than other classes), or a combination of both.

Either way, I find it MUCH less stressful and rage-inducing, and I generally play much better, when I have a primary soldier making the push/pull calls and other strategic decisions, leaving me to focus on warnings about health levels, and tracking uber/player advantages, and calling my own uber/health/position.
Last edited by Darien; 30-08-2011 at 19:34.
#8
Old 31-08-2011, 03:37
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I played some games as medic recently and had the same trouble

find calling as scout to be easiest

might be just class familiarity tho
#9
Old 31-08-2011, 19:58
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«Meersy Meersy is offline aka MasterMeers`
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I agree with Darien and Bowt. I think it's hard to make calls on whether to push or not in certain situations, as medic.

An example that can be used is badlands corner;
- Due to nature of pushing around this corner, especially if it is 6v6 even ubers, then there will be lots of spam going both ways around the corner, so as medic I would be forced to take a position somewhere around the top of the stairs, keeping the beam on my demoman and/or primary soldier. If I didn't do this, and tried to run around to corner to see what's happen (which you SHOULDN'T DO btw), I'd just die instantly. Because of this, I can't see anything that is going on, so I would have to rely on the calls from my team to make a decision, and even then it is hard to get the full picture of the situation, making it even harder to make a judgment.

The times where it is easier to make a call of this type, would be pushing into a very large, open area, such a granary last. In this situation, the medic has the ability to tell his team what to do, as he isn't pressured through a choke point, and can clearly see the positions of all the enemy players.
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#10
Old 31-08-2011, 21:03
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I divide calling into two different sections; play calling and natural calling.

Play calling is deciding what the team is going to do on a macro level - that is, what the teams goal is in an attempted push. This kind of calling is done during stalemates in order for your team to gain ground.

Natural calling is deciding what to do on the spot, on a micro level, during an actual skirmish between the combos that will help accomplish either the play call or gain advantages that present themselves quickly.

From my experience, a medic CAN make the play calls but rarely, if ever, make natural calls.

As an example let's say...
- Map cp_granary
- Even ubers
- 6v6
- You are pushing courtyard.

This is a situation where a "play call" would be made - someone makes a decision on what to do in order to break the deadlock, gain more ground and what to do with the uber.

Once the enemy positions have been sussed out the play caller can make an informed decision.

So let's say that the play caller has decided that the strat is to breakout to left courtyard(whether this is the best decision or not is not really relevent for this illustration), once this call is made everything after this would be a "natural call" - that is it would be on the fly calling on whether the push is working, what oppertunities to take advantage of, what to shoot at and other details that will help the team accomplish the goal of the "macro" decision.

So as a medic you could definately make the macro decision but once made everything after that will be out of your hands because, as Meersy and others have said, you can't stick your head out and look around because it's going to get blown the fuck off, and you've got other shit to worry about like flanking scouts, heal rotations, positioning, dodging, uber tracking etc.

Natural calling is best left to the primary and/or the demoman because they're the ones with their heads out the door and can see what's going on, and with that constant visual information they can tell the team who's low, who to chase, who's out of position to pick, whether they're winning the fight or losing etc.

Play calling should be left to the person with the most knowledge about game mechanics, strategy and ebb and flow of the game.

Of course, there's no reason why the primary or demo can't do both anyway.
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#11
Old 31-08-2011, 21:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meersy View Post
I agree with Darien and Bowt. I think it's hard to make calls on whether to push or not in certain situations, as medic.

An example that can be used is badlands corner;
- Due to nature of pushing around this corner, especially if it is 6v6 even ubers, then there will be lots of spam going both ways around the corner, so as medic I would be forced to take a position somewhere around the top of the stairs, keeping the beam on my demoman and/or primary soldier. If I didn't do this, and tried to run around to corner to see what's happen (which you SHOULDN'T DO btw), I'd just die instantly. Because of this, I can't see anything that is going on, so I would have to rely on the calls from my team to make a decision, and even then it is hard to get the full picture of the situation, making it even harder to make a judgment.

The times where it is easier to make a call of this type, would be pushing into a very large, open area, such a granary last. In this situation, the medic has the ability to tell his team what to do, as he isn't pressured through a choke point, and can clearly see the positions of all the enemy players.
most decisions are made before you make them (and see them)
#12
Old 31-08-2011, 22:14
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«Meersy Meersy is offline aka MasterMeers`
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Yeah, I totally agree, but I'm just trying to present the idea for 6v6 even uber situations, when it's a little bit harder to make a snap decision, for the sake of the mentoring
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#13
Old 2-09-2011, 13:26
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Quote:
To be a good Medic, does it follow that you have to be a good caller as well? By caller, I mean the person who makes the decisions to push/hold/fall etc. If so, what are good calls to make, and how do you decide on these calls?
I think the best answer to the first part of your question has already been made by No Mercy;
Quote:
Teams having a delegated caller is an attempt to simplify the team unity process, and that person is usually whoever has the best grasp on understanding advantages and situations.
Based on this there is no reason why a medic can't be the main caller of their team, what it does require however is perfect communication from your other players. You need to understand enemy positions and movements and relate that back to the situation that you are in. Of course the majority of this information will come from your team; if your team isn't very good at giving you this kind of information then you need to know how to ask for it. In many situations though other players who are in a better position to check for intel need to be the ones to make calls on plays, this is in situations where information is limited to you but not to them.
#14
Old 2-09-2011, 17:10
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«Meersy Meersy is offline aka MasterMeers`
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sneaky Scotsman View Post
Natural calling is deciding what to do on the spot, on a micro level, during an actual skirmish between the combos that will help accomplish either the play call or gain advantages that present themselves quickly.

From my experience, a medic CAN make the play calls but rarely, if ever, make natural calls.
I disagree. I think medics can make "natural calls" pretty easily, and should be doing it on a regular basis
Last edited by Meersy; 2-09-2011 at 17:17.
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#15
Old 3-09-2011, 12:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy
Teams having a delegated caller is an attempt to simplify the team unity process, and that person is usually whoever has the best grasp on understanding advantages and situations.
Your whole team should know and understand the above.
The medic should be calling whether everyone is buffed/ready for the push, if he doesn't then your team will push without buffs or too early.

Medic should be calling big heals on players and rotations, keeping constant vocals on your upkeep is pretty much the major point of calling for a medic. Also falling back depending on your teams health and positions, remember, the med can generally see all of you.

All of the above is good and all.. but keep it KISS and you'll be aight.

Bowt is on the money
Last edited by eko; 3-09-2011 at 12:12.
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