?

#1
Old 15-04-2010, 03:06
United States
29 Years Old
5,197 Posts
QUACK!
MentorSteam Profile
No Mercy's Avatar
vR*No Mercy No Mercy is offline
Administrator
Post here any any thoughts and feedback you have regarding cp_takeback_mountain after you have played your CFL round match.

Prefered Format:
· Rating: (1-5)
· Likes:
· Dislikes:
· Would You like to see this map in future ozfortress comps?:

Notes: any player is invited to voice their opinion, would appreciate team captains offering their opinions.

Result: 2.2

ps. I round any votes to nearest 0.5, average to 0.1 and take votes outside 1-5 regions as 1 or 5 respectively.
Last edited by No Mercy; 17-04-2010 at 01:57.
Reply With Quote
#2
Old 15-04-2010, 03:12
Australia
10,728 Posts
QUACK!
Steam Profile
siege's Avatar
vR*siege siege is offline
Member
- rating: 4
- likes: the two points are nearly direct opposites. B is inside, closed off, spammy and A is open and quite free flowing. C is really interesting; having the point at the bottom of a pit instead of on a tower was a nice change. also the map's aesthetics are great
dislikes: lack of height advantage on A
future ozf comps: yes
________________________
73% of the population were involved in some form of recall stabilisation program, to compensate for unquantifiable consciousness anomalies. Unlike most people, he knew exactly where he'd find the answers.
Reply With Quote
#3
Old 15-04-2010, 12:06
Australia
4,498 Posts
QUACK!
MentorSteam Profile
ferelah's Avatar
ozfortressferelah ferelah is offline aka Feresar
League Admin
Prefered Format:
· Rating: 3
like siege said, the points are opposite,
the map is aesthetically pleasing, i like the idea of the sneaky spawn door to A,
however i think the tree clipping needs to be changed so sentries cant fire through them,
C point was interesting however it seems a little too fiddly with the ramps and such, i think if it was changed to 2 stories or more tiered rather than 3 stories, perhaps a last point similar to well in regards to open ground infront of the point and defenders having height advantage with easy access to point
· Would You like to see this map in future ozfortress comps?: with a little fixing yes, it would be a viable A/D map
Reply With Quote
#4
Old 15-04-2010, 12:25
Australia
1,409 Posts
Team Red VeteranSteam Profile
Klinger's Avatar
NOSERKlingerthe team Klinger is offline
Member
this is my own downy opinion, dont really know what the team thought
Rating: 1.2-1.5 depending on how much prettyness is worth
Liked it being pretty
Liked B, just worked and could still get flanked
Dislike snipers inside
Height advantage at A is too much I think
Soooooooo Easy to spawn camp, after capping B you go past where defense spawns....
Its size..........its so F***ing huge
would I like to see it in ozfort comps: no
Reply With Quote
#5
Old 15-04-2010, 15:54
Australia
397 Posts
Soldier medalSteam Profile
TCG-stever stever is offline aka gumpest
Member
note with Klingers comment that the team was extremely frustrated from our previous match and played badly on this map. So we have kind of have a negative bias towards the map
Reply With Quote
#6
Old 15-04-2010, 18:48
Australia
1,046 Posts
Alienware winnerQUACK!Steam Profile
jkPAUL GEORGE PAUL GEORGE is offline aka hellscream, her0in, pookie, uzice, Minzy
Banned
CLAN JEDI KNIGHTZ REVIEW OF CP_TAKEBACK_MOUNTAIN


LIKES

9:49 AM - fanto: no

3:29 PM - pipes: wat if theres no likes

9:46 PM - dk: i liked the alpine setting
9:46 PM - dk: looks pretty
9:46 PM - dk: and a nice skybox

9:48 PM - moo: it was okay, I guess
9:48 PM - her0in: be honest
9:48 PM - moo: I am being honest
9:49 PM - moo: I guess
9:49 PM - moo: I dunno
9:49 PM - moo: Maybe

9:53 PM - snow: point A was nice
9:53 PM - snow: the rest was garbage
9:53 PM - her0in: did you like the skybox?
9:54 PM - snow: yeah the skybox was much better than theneds

I enjoyed climbing on the rocks. Defending A was fun too.


DISLIKES

9:56 AM - fanto: dislikes: siege and gee turning to the darkside

3:32 PM - pipes: i dnt like constant birds whistling or those nature sounds
3:32 PM - pipes: and most of the map is way too cluttered

9:51 PM - dk: problem wiht that map
9:51 PM - dk: is so much empty space
9:51 PM - dk: gone to waste
(then, regarding B)
10:22 PM - dk: such a tight space

9:49 PM - moo: I didn't like how it was so open
(then, regarding B)
10:31 PM - moo: ridiculous choke
10:31 PM - moo: had no room to move

9:53 PM - snow: point B and C felt almost unplayable as scout on offense as there were too many areas which were way too easy for soldiers/demomen to spam out
9:53 PM - snow: changing classes while in spawn makes you suicide
10:03 PM - snow: also the map was a bit laggy
10:03 PM - snow: forgot that

Changing class in spawn and dying twice
Spawning and getting to A takes two seconds making it really way too easy to defend and also get behind when they attack C
B in complete contrast to the open A was like someone took cp_junction and packed even MORE shit into a tiny area - there wasn't really anywhere to move when attacking and because it's so small was easy to rotate to cover any entry point


RATINGS

9:49 AM - fanto: 1
3:32 PM - pipes: 1
9:53 PM - snow: 2
9:51 PM - moo: 2.5
9:51 PM - dk: 1

Personally, 1.5
So, if we average out these ratings: we end up with
(1 + 1 + 2 + 2.5 + 1 + 1.5) / 6 = 1.8


WOULD WE LIKE TO SEE THIS MAP IN FUTURE TOURNAMENTS


9:49 AM - fanto: no

3:32 PM - pipes: no

9:52 PM - dk: lol fuck no

9:56 PM - snow: no
9:56 PM - snow: and fuck you fanto

9:56 PM - moo (1): sure


SIDE NOTES


pipes went to B looking for C
snowblind got 2 frags
i kept trying to get that fake ammo pack
Reply With Quote
#7
Old 15-04-2010, 19:24
Australia
36,557 Posts
Steam Profile
valk's Avatar
vR*valk valk is offline aka valk, va
Member
good post
________________________
11:17 PM - yuri: vr are better than d because d dont play matches
Reply With Quote
#8
Old 15-04-2010, 21:28
Australia
28 Years Old
2,600 Posts
Team Blue VeteranAttended ozfLANSteam Profile
Miicah's Avatar
NOSERMiicahthe team Miicah is offline
Member
Rofl ^

Prefered Format:
· Rating: 1 (because it's TF2)
· Likes: Camping spawn ROFL
b is pretty good
· Dislikes: ^
only 3 ways out of spawn way too easy to spawn camp
not enough metal/health packs
giant pointless corridors and rooms, (wtf giant ammo room you cant get to?)
C is awful to defend
TREEEEEES
Cant get my sentry on the roof at A
Bad fps


· Would You like to see this map in future ozfortress comps?: No.
Reply With Quote
#9
Old 15-04-2010, 22:31
Australia
5,695 Posts
Steam Profile
b/cactuar cactuar is offline aka cactuar., cactuaR, seRious, CaCtUaR
Banned
rating: 0.5/5
likes: looks good
dislikes:

- 2623645234km high skybox
- trees are retarded as you can shoot through them but get stuck in
- roofs in huts you cant get on
- that thing above A you can jump on as demo
- all the fences
- A and B are extremely close to red spawn, what?
- map is 1000x too big
- choppy fps (i7 and 5770 and my fps constantly stutters from 30 to 66)
- very cluttered and too many corridors

Would You like to see this map in future ozfortress comps?: no, not at all
Reply With Quote
#10
Old 15-04-2010, 22:39
New Zealand
24 Years Old
255 Posts
Steam Profile
Asherak's Avatar
thc.Asherak Asherak is offline
Member
Prefered Format:
· Rating: A for effort (0)
· Likes: people apparently liked the visuals but I wouldn't know as i had my settings on low to have bareable fps on this map
· Dislikes: everything pretty much
trees
places you can get stuck
terrible/no clipping
able to get to retarded spots (see: cliffs, trees)
trees
not enough optimization - people complaining about 1/2 their usual fps
trees
hyoooge skybox
celph was saying there was a non-solid roof somewhere he fell through, pretty gay
trees
tempted to decompile the map to see if any optization at all was done really

in terms of the actual points and gameplay, nah
· Would You like to see this map in future ozfortress comps?: i'd rather play a season of golden cap fastlane
Last edited by Asherak; 15-04-2010 at 22:41.
Reply With Quote
#11
Old 15-04-2010, 23:08
New Zealand
24 Years Old
255 Posts
Steam Profile
Asherak's Avatar
thc.Asherak Asherak is offline
Member
in terms of the skybox here's some comparisons:


the orange box is the maximum height between the ground brush and the ceiling brush (i.e. the maximum height you can rocket/demo jump before you hit an invisible wall) for cp_badlands

the blue box is the same thing for takeback mountain. really unnecesarry and will only make compiling heaps longer and fps ingame worse

lots of lazy clipping around the trees/cliff faces, leading to a lot of invisible walls where there shouldn't be while other areas you can move freely where you really shouldn't.

not having a go at the map maker here but i'm just pointing out a lot of the things that could have easily been avoided for a final release
Reply With Quote
#12
Old 15-04-2010, 23:21
Singapore
782 Posts
Steam Profile
fray`no0bifier no0bifier is offline
Member
Post here any any thoughts and feedback you have regarding cp_takeback_mountain after you have played your CFL round match.

Prefered Format:
· Rating: 5
· Likes: Jumping on everything was madcoool
· Dislikes: bit of wasted space, but shits so cool
· Would You like to see this map in future ozfortress comps?: YES

fuck that map is so fun

pub24/7 on this is a must

Notes: any player is invited to voice their opinion, would appreciate team captains offering their opinions.
________________________
9:15 PM - R♡iden: shitting my pants right now 9:15 PM - R♡iden: your like my idol :|
Reply With Quote
#13
Old 15-04-2010, 23:33
Australia
1,164 Posts
Past/Current All-AustralianMentorSteam Profile
Crunch's Avatar
Crunch.au Crunch is offline aka Captain Crunch
Past/Current All-Australian
· Rating:
1/5

· Likes:
double sticky jumping from B to A and taking no fall damage
so much health and open areas to run around u dont need a medic
super sky box that makes people look like commets as they fly around
the player clipping on the cliffs and satellite dish..especially enjoyed building a tower on the dish

· Dislikes:
from a competative aspect? everything.
spawn to close to A and B
too much randomly scattered hp and ammo
respawns are too quick
spawns are camped incredibly easy
map layout is completely wrong (if any team was playing seriosuly, ubers can be popped from an extreme distance away and there is really no way to get cornered and no need to think about positioning/fallback routes etc. Basically encouraging a FFA.)

· Would You like to see this map in future ozfortress comps?: NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN

No offence to khuntza. its great to see anyone taking the time and effort to attempt a competative map. You've missed the competative mark by a long way mate. what you've created however, is an EPIC pub map. if you approached bestgn or some other group who runs custom pubs you'd have a winner in my view. its everything a pub map should be and more and i'd spend many hours lolling my way around on it.
________________________
I think i just gagged and vomited at the same time...i gavomited!
Reply With Quote
#14
Old 15-04-2010, 23:36
Australia
1,887 Posts
QUACK!
Steam Profile
Crowie's Avatar
foxy•Crowie#c0g Crowie is offline aka Dr. Crowie
Member
Not sure if I should give a review as Im slightly biased but:
I give it a 4 (if gave it 5 Id look like a wanker)
Likes: I like the flow from point to point, good differences in the way you need to approach each point and there are many options for classes, positioning. Has good size (similar to gravel/junction). I think it has an intuitive layout and doesnt take much to get used to. Good risk/reward in defense and attack.
Dislikes: I would agree with some of the previous comments in regards to some of the clipping. There are some minor glitches were you can get stuck but I wouldnt say they are in critical spots. The skybox is too big that is a fair point too.

I would like to see this in future comps but I would like to see Khuntza perhaps do an optimised version for that. Thats if he could be bothered but in its present form I still think it could be played and enjoyed.

In response to some other posts (Im sorry but again I admit Im biased) I think they are a little harsh and it could help if they were a little more specific esp about the trees. Which trees?? As I know for a fact Khuntza did take time to clip the trees in a conical formation so you could shoot past the edge but not through the centre.
A small list of specific glitches would help. Cheers
Last edited by Crowie; 15-04-2010 at 23:38.
Reply With Quote
#15
Old 16-04-2010, 00:23
Australia
5,695 Posts
Steam Profile
b/cactuar cactuar is offline aka cactuar., cactuaR, seRious, CaCtUaR
Banned
oh yeah i forgot to mention that this would be the greatest pub map ever
Reply With Quote
#16
Old 16-04-2010, 02:04
Australia
1,887 Posts
QUACK!
Steam Profile
Crowie's Avatar
foxy•Crowie#c0g Crowie is offline aka Dr. Crowie
Member
connect 203.14.173.246:27017 for 24 hour takeback
Reply With Quote
#17
Old 16-04-2010, 03:36
Australia
755 Posts
Steam Profile
le_420_prince's Avatar
iMle_420_princeintel le_420_prince is offline aka epic, stomash, Radical!
Member


but would be 5/5 pub map
Last edited by le_420_prince; 16-04-2010 at 11:59.
________________________
ok buddy
Reply With Quote
#18
Old 16-04-2010, 06:43
Australia
25 Years Old
430 Posts
Steam Profile
Ramby's Avatar
Ramby Ramby is offline
Member
· Rating: 1
· Likes: A and B are unique
· Dislikes:C makes me question my sexuality, in spite of everyones praise of the cosmetics i think it looks fucking ugly. YOU CAN GET STUCK IN TREES. needlessly complex connectors, FPS drops
· Would You like to see this map in future ozfortress comps?: NO
Last edited by Ramby; 16-04-2010 at 06:44.
Reply With Quote
#19
Old 16-04-2010, 09:49
New Zealand
24 Years Old
255 Posts
Steam Profile
Asherak's Avatar
thc.Asherak Asherak is offline
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Crowie View Post
1. In response to some other posts (Im sorry but again I admit Im biased) I think they are a little harsh and it could help if they were a little more specific esp about the trees. Which trees??

2.
As I know for a fact Khuntza did take time to clip the trees in a conical formation so you could shoot past the edge but not through the centre.
A small list of specific glitches would help. Cheers
1. Personally I just dislike the trees in general but they're also fairly annoying model wise (i.e. you can shoot through them and don't block LOS for sentries). Lot's of annoying spots where you can get stuck on them too, such as here:


and here:

really bad that the map encourages jumping over the fence line to the other point, yet if you screw it up you can land right in the middle of 5 trees and be permastuck.

2. Yes, he did clip the trees in a conical fashion. However the playerclip texture he used (see the screenshot) does just that - it clips only on player entities, i.e. only players can't walk through that. Bullets and AI Line of Sight (sentries) are not affected by playerclips. So as fray kindly showed us in our match, sentries behind trees will infact kill you. The invisiblewall texture or whatever its called would have done what you intended I think - can't walk through it, shoot through it, sentries have no LOS through it; although there's probably a better way.

on probably a compiling/fps related note, I got a bunch of errors when I opened the map. If Khuntza isn't using this page already, he should be - http://www.interlopers.net/errors. He can paste his compile logs there and it will report all the errors in the log.
Last edited by Asherak; 16-04-2010 at 10:31.
Reply With Quote
#20
Old 16-04-2010, 15:17
Australia
1,046 Posts
Alienware winnerQUACK!Steam Profile
jkPAUL GEORGE PAUL GEORGE is offline aka hellscream, her0in, pookie, uzice, Minzy
Banned
just regarding getting stuck in a tree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWNpLlsQ4Q0

and how the spawns were too close:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYS9g_WWq_E
(of course would have been faster if i went through other door)
Reply With Quote
#21
Old 16-04-2010, 16:05
Australia
1,164 Posts
Past/Current All-AustralianMentorSteam Profile
Crunch's Avatar
Crunch.au Crunch is offline aka Captain Crunch
Past/Current All-Australian
http://download.ausfieldops.net/tf2/...keback_mou.rar

I think the setup times took longer than the actual game but it demonstrates several of the most broken things about the map.

1: mad sentry spot that can fire through the trees but cant be spammed in turn (if riki placed it further to the right it would have been even more effective)

2: jumping from A to B to cut off any pushes to that point. Its pretty difficult to see people comming and you can quickly jump at least 3 of your guys over there giving you pretty much free reign to kill their medic.

3: spawns camped too easily...i mean we camped A spawn indefinitely and when we saw them moving to be we rotated and camped B. On our run to A we killed their demo and then proceeded to spawn camp him in red spawn so that our attack on B was won before it began.

4: proximity and lack of proper choke points separating A/B and C. its almost impossible to retreat from B as the routes leading to and from the point are so open you can send a scout/soldier behind the retreating combo and sandvich them. As a result you will almost definitely get a wipe when attacking the team and can effectively stroll on to C, spawn camp and cap the point before they've even spawned.

Quick suggestions:
Remove the trees. Replace them with cliffs, a building,,anything that cant be shot through, jumped through or anything like that.

Fix player clipping on cliffs. they make for some pretty funny moments but..well you know.

make the fences at middle non-see through. I know you were going for an airy, open feel to the map but a lack of visibility from A to B would make the map play a lot better and would effectively eliminate players jumping from A to B as you really cant time it properly to get proper surprise on the offense. it would also kill a lot of the massive fps drops that happen when you go outside. ( i have a shit computer and any poor optimisation is quite obvious)

gpit spawns are set the way they are to stop indefinite spawn camping. Best not to stray from a proven formula.

I think without a complete redesign of the connectors from A to C and B to C incorporating some tight, holdable choke points and a reposition of red spawn further away from A and C in particular this will be little more than an excellent pub map. If you really have no desire to go through effectively a complete redesign then probably leave it alone. because as it is, it would be one of the most enjoyable pub maps around with its little quirks
________________________
I think i just gagged and vomited at the same time...i gavomited!
Reply With Quote
#22
Old 16-04-2010, 16:58
Australia
1,046 Posts
Alienware winnerQUACK!Steam Profile
jkPAUL GEORGE PAUL GEORGE is offline aka hellscream, her0in, pookie, uzice, Minzy
Banned
if you implemented all the changes crunch said i would like it
that being said even as it is now i thought it was _fun_ but that doesnt mean it would play competitively

edit:
i just watched that marathon stv crunch posted and like i said i agree with him but if the other team had 6 players/a demoman defending B/cared it would be SO EASY to defend B. like good luck attacking down those narrow corridors when youre actually going to get spammed and take damage
plus because its such a small space at B red would be able to rotate and defend u from whichever narrow corridor u came from
basically open up B a little bit (whether make the passage ways wider or some shit idfk) plus all the other changes best medic in australia suggested the map will already have come a long way
Last edited by PAUL GEORGE; 16-04-2010 at 17:16. Reason: asdafasd
Reply With Quote
#23
Old 16-04-2010, 18:42
Australia
2,122 Posts
QUACK!Past/Current All-AustralianMentorSteam Profile
snowblind's Avatar
iMsnowblindintel snowblind is offline aka snowblind, snow
Past/Current All-Australian
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellscream View Post
snowblind got 2 frags
what you mean after i dropped and had a few minutes left (idiot)
Reply With Quote
#24
Old 17-04-2010, 01:50
United States
29 Years Old
5,197 Posts
QUACK!
MentorSteam Profile
No Mercy's Avatar
vR*No Mercy No Mercy is offline
Administrator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Crowie View Post
In response to some other posts (Im sorry but again I admit Im biased) I think they are a little harsh and it could help if they were a little more specific esp about the trees. Which trees?? As I know for a fact Khuntza did take time to clip the trees in a conical formation so you could shoot past the edge but not through the centre.
A small list of specific glitches would help. Cheers
2/5

Reasonable request but personally i dont see any amount of tweaking would make this map competitive.

  • On the ground plan it is too big. This is most significant at A and in the large open and relaitvely useless spaces outside.
  • A and outside are open and long for snipers. The trees and rock faces make for absurd flanks, clipping abuses and aerial positioning. Skybox as mentioned.
  • B point is grossly overcrowded with objects. iirc I spotted a 200hp pack, which is a total no no.
  • C combat plays like corridors wars, and there is 4+ such corridors
  • I personally really dislike the 'pit of doom' design for C point. The low ground cap pealty conpet is sound but the execution here over emphasises this trade off.
  • Both spawns are awkward. Blu spawn is sniper campable and demoman camp doors. Red has very quick access but is tiny door in the midst of the C battlefield. The 3 path ides from blue spawn was nice.
As a proof of concept on a sketch style schematic i liked the map concepts with room placement and varied defense styles. However if you were truly comitted to making the whole map 6v6 competitive, imo a rebuild from scratch would be on the cards. That said as previously i saw this map akin in size, strucutre and playability to cp_steel and do see it as a playable pub map (or more 8-12 team sized map).

Sorry in advanced if this came across harsh, but you were asking for some genuine feedback (which is great!) and I wouldnt want to withhold advice just to come across as the impartial admin.
Last edited by No Mercy; 17-04-2010 at 01:54.
Reply With Quote
#25
Old 18-04-2010, 16:44
Australia
25 Posts
Steam Profile
Khuntza|MD| Khuntza is offline
Member
Hey guys.. thanks for all the feedback, good and bad.

There is a couple of things that have been brought up that I'd like to give my perspective on..

Trees. One of the main complaints seems to be in regard to the trees. Trees generally aren't used within the playing area of a map (with the exception of maybe the giant one on Sawmill). The tree clusters don't have collision meshes as they are usually used as outer edge decoration props. This means they had to be clipped individually. Had this not been done then players would have been able to run through them as if they weren't even there.

Initially when clipping out the trees I took the approach of using a large brush to cover each tree cluster. The unfortunate consequence of this is one of two things; you either have a flat top to the tree clusters allowing players to use them as platforms, or alternatively you have higher sloped clip brushes with the side effect of preventing demo or solis from clearing them when jumping and hitting an invisible wall mid-air.

The eventual solution I went with was to use two cone shaped clip brushes to clip the trees. The first is the centre cone which blocks bullets. This brush is designed to represent the trunk and thicker foliage in the inner part of each tree. The second is the larger player clip brush. This was placed just inside the outer of each tree model, primarily to prevent players from hiding within the trees in areas where they could ambush another player.

I do accept that the trees could be revisited to prevent players becoming stuck in between the upper parts of the clips, though I believe this is only in one or two specific places that players can actually become stuck. I have since gone and tested this and could only find one location where a player can truly become stuck which is between a tree and the fence near the right Blu spawn door. The spot Asherak pointed out can be exited by a demo or soli with a sticky/rocket jump, and a scout can get out but very slowly, it is still an issue none the less. As for the spot pointed out in hellscreams first video, I tested that spot and could not get stuck, the soli should have easily been able to drop down into the canyon area and must have been trying to push through trees when he shouldn’t have. Not sure if that’s poor design on my part or poor play on the soli's. Maybe a bit of both!

Regarding the sentry shooting through trees, as I explained above, the trees do have bullet clipping around their core. I was conscious of sentry guns shooting off the ledge at A (I assume this is where the SG in question was). I thought I had this right, but if a SG has line of sight to a player before the player does, then again I accept this as an issue that could be fixed with a little more testing and tweaking.

Bottom line regarding the trees is that I feel that they are an essential element of the maps design, albeit a little unconventional. I also believe that the method I eventually used for clipping them was the best available option.

In regards to the comments from Jedi Knightz, where exactly were the dying in spawn when changing class incidents? I've tested both spawns, and to date no one else has given this same feedback. The only thing I can think of is in the two 'wings' of Blu spawn (the areas that open on the upper level once the setup time has lapsed). If this is where you mean, then this is a deliberate design decision. Spawn rooms contain a brush called func_spawnroom, within this area players can change class without death and engineers cannot build. Those wings on the upper level of Blu spawn deliberately do not have func_spawnroom so that engineers can setup SG's in this area in the event that a Red team were to attempt a spawn camp. Similar to how you'll often see a Blu Engi setup a SG in the door from spawn to B on Gravelpit (granted in pubs and not so much comp).

I can also agree that the fake ammo pack in the cave area could cause confusion, that cart model could easily be swapped out or removed all together to resolve that issue.

Clipping. I had a test of this after reading some of the comments. I was actually surprised to find some of the places I could get to as demo/soli (embarrassing as I pretty much play demo lol). Clipping of the rock face directly above A and of the cliff face under the radio tower mountain could do with some tweaking. Its easy to get your blinders on when you spend so much time on something like this. Crunch, what do you mean building a tower on the satellite dish? Surely not without using noclip first.

Miicah, what 'giant ammo room' are you referring to that you can't get to? Do you mean the computer room between Red spawn and B? If so it’s kind of a weird complaint to not be able to get in there. It’s a vista, it’s there to make the map more visually interesting. Perhaps the corridor behind that is a little long, but it provides and alternative route for Red to get to B. It gives them a back way in and a way to the upper room where they have a height advantage. This is useful if they cannot get through the shorter route past the computer room of via the cave area. I don’t feel it’s pointless and would be missed if it were removed.

As far as there not being enough metal/health packs go, Miicah, you say there isn't enough then later Crunch goes on to say there is so much a medic isn't needed. Again, through play testing and lengthy discussion I feel that the balances and locations of health and ammo is pretty right. Health/ammo placement is something that will always attract varying opinions and will always be a topic of contention for any map.

The point was also raised that C is difficult to defend. I gather that most teams will have found this, as did we in our match. In contrast from feedback I have received from various places the map is posted, many players have found C to be difficult to attack. Especially if you have more than one Engi setup on the lower level. That said, I would assume that this has been the case in pub matches with 16+ players. In any map there has to be a balance found somewhere, it would appear that the balance in this case doesn't favour 6v6 comp.

Optimisation. I accept that the FPS for the map isn't as high as most maps, but if I can run it smoothly on a P4 rig then IMO they are high enough to be considered acceptable. I can assure everyone that the map is optimised as best as possible; area portals are in place right across the map, hint brushes are used to improve VIS and I extensively used nodraw. Optimisation needs to be considered and designed from the very first stage of map development. I neglected this fact and as a result the open nature of the front of the map made optimisation difficult. As a mapper I have leant from this and it can only make my next maps better!

Asherak, you seem to be the most vocal about optimisation. You say that you are 'not having a go' at me, yet call my clipping lazy. Your intentions may have been good but its generally poor form to decompile the work of another mapper and I find it quite condescending that you would then post hammer screenshots of my work, even more so that you by your own admission are yet to release a finished map. Yes, the skybox is high; its height matches the top of the rocket that covers C. Yes, I could have optimised it a better, however it would not be a magical fix for the performance of the map. As sad above, it’s due to the open nature of the map that made the optimisation difficult and from what I gave myself to work with when it came to optimisation I made the best of it that I could.

Yes, I used the interlopers compile log checker. I’m not sure what errors exactly you are getting. The map does contain some custom content, textures and particles. I had a play around with it on a local server and couldn't reproduce any errors, even when playing around with sv_pure. Console errors aren't the be all and end all of performance or map issues. Many of the official maps give console errors when loaded. Perhaps the errors were server side? If you like, send me a PM with the errors that you are getting and I'll take a look.

no0bifier, not sure if you are trolling or if your comments are genuine.. Either way they made me laugh.

As it stands I don’t know if I want to invest any more time in this map. If there was good enough reason to I would be happy to fix some clipping issues and one or two other minor things that have been raised, but a redesign of the core design is not going to happen.

The map was posted in the So You Think You Can Map forum with a playable alpha available since early December. Many of the comments in this thread would have been much more helpful during the earlier stages of the maps development. Perhaps if there is a SYTYCM 2 competition (here’s hoping!) assistance with play testing and feedback will be more forthcoming at the earlier stages.

If the verdict is that Takeback is simply not a competitive map, yet a better than average pub map, then that is a result I'm more than happy with. It's probably a reflection on my style as a player, and likely subconsciously influenced the decisions I made during the maps development.

Again, thank you to everyone who took time to post their thoughts and opinions, I really do appreciate the feedback. Especially the posts that explained their positions and not just posting '1/5, OMG TREEEZZ!'.

Sorry its such a long post..
Reply With Quote
#26
Old 18-04-2010, 18:16
Australia
29 Years Old
678 Posts
QUACK!Team Red VeteranSoldier medalSteam Profile
b/weaselben weaselben is offline
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khuntza View Post
The map was posted in the So You Think You Can Map forum with a playable alpha available since early December. Many of the comments in this thread would have been much more helpful during the earlier stages of the maps development. Perhaps if there is a SYTYCM 2 competition (here’s hoping!) assistance with play testing and feedback will be more forthcoming at the earlier stages.
I'm pretty sure there were plenty of criticisms about your map after pugging on it but they may not have made it out of IRC. Were you there when it was playtested? I remember being particularly vocal about the open spaces and the trees.

I think one problem was that you were perhaps giving equal weight to all opinions of your map. Just in the above post you said, effectively, "Miicah thought there wasn't enough health and Crunch thought there was, so obviously it's not that big a deal!" The more experienced player is Crunch, the player with a better understanding of the game is Crunch and, to be honest, you should be listening to Crunch. Honestly, when making the map who did you listen to more, the people who pugged on it in ACF or members of your clan such as Crowie? Not to discredit him, but even if he did have a flawless understanding of the map he'd hardly be overly critical of it. You are friends after all.

I liked the map when I pugged on it from a "hey this looks kind of cool" point of view (I missed the match ) and I think you are a good mapper, but unfortunately this one just missed the mark from a competitive standpoint.
Reply With Quote
#27
Old 18-04-2010, 18:22
Melbourne
27 Years Old
4,300 Posts
Steam Profile
Uther Doul's Avatar
Uther Doul Uther Doul is offline aka Laveidem, lavender, lav, meatball, Extreme Boyheat, Tamerlane
Supported Lag Relief '09
I liked the trees. )
________________________
heh
Reply With Quote
#28
Old 18-04-2010, 19:00
Australia
25 Posts
Steam Profile
Khuntza|MD| Khuntza is offline
Member
Yeah.. I didn't find out about the pug till after the fact and I never did get to see a STV or get any other feedback from it. Not to worry.

During the development we did scrim a few teams on it, and your right I probably did try and give equal weight to all opinions. At the same time everyones opinion is a valid one and I did try to get as many as possile.

At the end of the day I made the map that I wanted to make, its all any mapper can do. If its not cut out for competition then so be it..
Reply With Quote
#29
Old 18-04-2010, 19:16
Australia
1,164 Posts
Past/Current All-AustralianMentorSteam Profile
Crunch's Avatar
Crunch.au Crunch is offline aka Captain Crunch
Past/Current All-Australian
haha by "tower" i mean "getting a whole stack of people into our server and stacking each other up off the satellite dish into the biblical skybox"

not a sentry :P

and as for pub play. if you care enough to fix those trees + clipping issues it might be an idea to submit it to valve...they usuallly release finalised community maps with their updates. its worth a look
Last edited by Crunch; 18-04-2010 at 19:24.
________________________
I think i just gagged and vomited at the same time...i gavomited!
Reply With Quote
#30
Old 21-04-2010, 02:39
Australia
28 Years Old
2,600 Posts
Team Blue VeteranAttended ozfLANSteam Profile
Miicah's Avatar
NOSERMiicahthe team Miicah is offline
Member
Well tbh my play experience was standing outside the other teams spawn for 10mins and rolling through in 3 on attack so maybe I never needed the health/metal
Reply With Quote
Thread Tools