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#1
Old 9-04-2010, 21:26
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TF2 GUIDE TO GETTING GOOD

Like any game, the key to success in Team Fortress 2 is being good, and the cornerstone to being good is KNOWING HOW TO THINK ABOUT THE GAME AND MASTERING THE SITUATIONS IN THE GAME

Alot of teams message me saying they have problems with communication - the reason teams cant communicate well is because they dont know how to think about the game the right way. If you dont know how to think about the game in the right way then how on earth are you going to be able to communicate the right things!?!?! Saying lets talk / communicate more will probably end up being more of hindrance than help because vent is filled with USELESS POINTLESS information. When I slut for div2/3 teams its not that they have a problem talking to each other and communicating its that they say the wrong things!!

NoMercy wrote a guide about communication which is fantastic! He gave the example of intensity having a problem with communication:

"During my stint in clan Intensity, we went through a phase whereby we identified communication as the root cause of our failures, having overzealous and ill-informed scouts, a silent apprehensive combo, and a few players who simply struggled to talk and fight. I have since seen very similar issues in many clans I have slutted in (especially at a division 2-3 level)."

When I was playing in teams against intensity they never improved! Thier focus on trying to improve communication definately didnt make there team anybetter - the scoreline would always be so gross. That in combination with generalised statements to improve such as "We need to have better teamwork" "we need to have better heavy class coordination" "We arnt doing enough with our ubers" "HEAPS OF OTHER GENERALISED STATEMENTS I HEAR FROM TEAMS ALL THE TIME" didnt help their team get any better!!! I slutted for intensity a numberof times before they disbanded and they had TERRIBLE communication!!!
WHAT GIVES?

When I started playing with clan A the team was very similar to intensity - made up of some ex-intensity players (sheep/yuki), cruger, aporia and amd! How on earth is this motly bunch going to become good!?!? KNOWING HOW TO THINK / MASTERING SITUATIONS IN THE GAME

If I was going to draw a pie chart of everything we have worked on 80% would be understanding how to play situations / think about the game and 5% would be communication but since the start our communication has improved TREMENDOUSLY.

Playing based on what you can see

This is way I describe 99% of TF2 players (BAD PLAYERS). They have absolutely no idea about whats happening in the game and they are purely playing based on what they can see on their screen.

A GOOD PLAYER at TF2 is THINKING ALOT about whats happening in the game with advantages / disadvantages and how they should play based on these factors!

ADVANTAGES / DISADVANTAGES

In TF2 you dont actually get rewarded for any kill you get unless you take ADVANTAGE of it by gaining MORE KILLS / TERRIRORY - this is such a massive point. When you have advantage your team wants to PUSH, when you have disadvantage your team wants to DEFEND VS YOUR DISADVANTAGE!

UBER ADVANTAGE/DISADVANTAGE

PLAYER ADVANTAGE/DISADVANTAGE

These in combination with where you are on the map (positioning) are the factors that you should be thinking about while you are playing.


OK SO LETS GIVE SOME EXAMPLES OF SITAUTIONS IN THE GAME and how I would think about playing based on them!

Situation: 6v6 attacking granary warehouse WITH UBER ADVANTAGE

so essentially your team is in the courtyard outside the other teams warehouse(cp4) and you have 100% uber and they have 20% uber

you have NO PLAYER ADVANTAGE and UBER ADVANTAGE

= uber demoman from connector

why? I think its difficult for a soldier to use uber advantage in this situation because the warehouse is indoors (hard to RJ easy to get bounced). Soldier uber could work from bottom left near the stairs or on top of the stairs but its more risky to get into that position and takes more time. Often as scout I will follow the demoman and help him with the uber.

example of this in action: http://ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=37723

Situation: 6v6 attacking granary warehouse EVEN UBERS + DEMOMAN ADVANTAGE

In this situation your team can take control of the point because you can easily outdamage the other team. 2nd soldier could go from connector and main soldier + demoman from the right rollerdoors with scouts just helping the cap / watching flanks.

Situation: 6v6 attacking granary warehouse UBER DISADANTAGE

Not really attacking the warehouse because you have uber disadvantage. You dont want to move into a position where they could use uber and kill you. Essentially defending their courtyard against uber disadvantage trying to make them pop then fallout gain uber advantage.

Situation: 6v6 attacking granary warehouse EVEN UBERS + soldier and scout ADVANTAGE

Heavys could try to take the point while scouts go behind to try force uber.

As you can see there are many different combination of advantage / disadvantages - it should affect how you play.

STRATEGIES

Hopefully the above example of situations should show you why having strategys is a bad idea. Alot of the time there are different factors with advantage / disadvantage's going on which should change the way you play.

There is some need for strategy and its in what I call "set situations" or stalemate type situations when neither team has advantage.

SCOUTS CAP HEAVYS PUSH ON!!

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF NOT THINKING ABOUT THE GAME!!! and a mistake EVERY TEAM MAKES

Situation: Your team wins rollout on cp_granary and have a soldier scout scout medic alive.

the other team has demoman + medic alive + pulling back

THERE IS NO WAY THE SOLDIER + MEDIC ARE GOING TO PUSH BACK THE DEMOMAN + MEDIC + RESPAWNERS

If you had soldier + medic cap and both of the scouts push they could achieve KILLS / UBER ADVANTAGE / PROBABLY MORE GROUND.

DONT GET ME WRONG SOMETIMES ITS GOOD TO HAVE SCOUTS CAP AND HEAVYS PUSH

i.e. you kill their entire team on rollout you want to have your scouts cap and heavys push on ASAP!!!

OR they are escaping with SOLDIER + MEDIC only and your entire team is up its probably best for scouts to cap and heavys to push because your heavy's will be able to roll over there soldier + medic easily!!!



Last night I played a scrim against a team that was on CP5 of granary and they killed our demoman (had demoman advantage), but proceeded to sit on the last point and do nothing with the advantage letting our demoman respawn. I said to them "why didnt you push?", they said "we didnt have uber". YOU DONT NEED UBER TO PUSH! also YOU NEVER WANT TO UBER FIRST WITH PLAYER ADVANTAGE (unless you have uber advantage!!!) (SO in this situation even if they had uber and ubered first they would have just given us uber advantage!!! (HELLO X5). They could have attemped to push in and take the point with force while our demoman is down.

My advice:


To start off with its really hard to get into alot of detail and think about these different factors. KEEP IT SIMPLE!
If you have uber advantage try to use your uber advantage and protect your medic from dying! If you have player advantage push!!! If you have player disadvantage / uber disadvantage defend your disadvantage!

Start thinking about situations in the game and how you / your team should play based on them

Watch demos of good players and see how they play based on whats happening

DO NOT CHANGE YOUR MOUSE SENSITIVITY / CROSSHAIR COLOUR / CROSSHAIR SIZE / DIFFERENT MOUSE /

If feedback is good ill answer community questions on what I would do in certain situations.
Last edited by valk; 30-04-2010 at 20:43.
#2
Old 9-04-2010, 21:32
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good write up bowt, bit all over the place with how its written but awesome points made
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#3
Old 9-04-2010, 21:33
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#4
Old 9-04-2010, 21:54
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i wrote this and bowt posted it for me. thanks bowt! (hi yuki)
#5
Old 9-04-2010, 21:54
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bowt refuses amd's assistance with grammar because amd is a bad medic

(or something like that)
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#6
Old 9-04-2010, 23:01
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I have found though that all the best positioning and strategic decisions in the world can't make up for not being able to actually kill things that appear on your screen. Very frustrating having all the advantage and loosing it all because your team doesn't have the basic of actually killing stuff. I thought you could make up for that with great positioning and good decision making, and did my best to out-think everyone else on the field. Turns out you still need to be able to kill shit.
#7
Old 9-04-2010, 23:13
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#8
Old 9-04-2010, 23:41
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if you cant damage enemies when you have superior positioning maybe its time to buy a monitor
#9
Old 10-04-2010, 02:51
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seems like common sense isnt really that common
most of this stuff should be second nature to any1

example1.mp4 should be standard... demo/sold (mainy demo ) + scout pshing that is really easy and broken

standards these days....................

this guide should help any team reach div2
#10
Old 10-04-2010, 02:56
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nice write up bowt
really good work
#11
Old 10-04-2010, 04:21
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I think Bowt's post has hit the nail on the head, though there is a lot of scattered ideas and insights around his general point that being: Push with advantage, hold/drop with disadvantage!

Sounds basic but it is rarely properly considered what advantages are truly present and how they stack up against each other and even harder again, what the best course of action for any given advantage is. Knowing this in the many different cases takes time and experience to learn but simplistic models of the most significant potential advantages will go a long way.

Having uber while the other team doesnt is a huge advantage if and only iff you can spend your uber to kill their medic, or alternatively bully them out of areas without using your uber. Using up your uber to take ground and capping a point but killing very little is a failed push; now they have uber advantage and will punish you if you dont equally waste their uber, done by playing defensively with escape routes.

Both teams having uber vs both teams not having uber is only useful in situations where map positionings (aka choke points) dictate the defensive teams advantage, often only made significant by their demoman. It is ten seconds of positional disrupting, and escape insurance - not much more. Thus grinding your uber at the cost of them getting one too is rarely a significant advantage (it often still is) for the attacking team, and certainly not worth pursuing to miss out on exploiting those player picks you just got instead.

Player wise for a defending team:
Medic > Demo > Soldier > Scout (in the vast majority of spots on maps)
Though, Scout & Scout > Soli & Scout often
Consider this sort of heirarchy when evaluating how good your advantage is.

Map shape (choke points for demo/soli, open spaces & obstacles for scouts, aerial mid/close perches for solis etc) may affect this slightly, as does the known skill of individual opponents will also affect the singificant of player advantages. Scouts gain value in lower number battles.

The size of your advantage as well as which team it swings to is also important.
-A small advantage may be used to steal a larger one, or perhaps its not worth using at all (as the natural disavantage of being the aggressor, or the attempting risk overwhelms it)
-A better one should mean taking some ground
-A huge one may mean 2+ cap points or if the other team is stupid, all 5 as you 'steam-roll', killing lone respawners to maintain your huge advantage.

When your advatage is great, dont throw away your life riskily. Trading kills may be beneficial, but theres a good chance your team will just be able to gang up and do it a safer way. Conversely trading kills (i dont mean a scout getting a medic, obv that turns out well) on the defense is usually a bad idea, (would you rather be 4v5 or 2v3?). Sometimes it may be done by 1 scout to buy time, though only when desperate.

At any moment something may happen to immediately shift the status of your advantage (often outside your individual control), and the speed which you react to this is a game breaker.

What to do strategically with any specific advantage is harder to show without examples as every case will be unique, but its not a bible of hard-coded plays, its just made up thinking about what classes (or uber) youve got up, what they lack, and what this means when thinking about what each class is good and bad at, or where it means they arnt so strong in defense positionally.

So next time you've killled both their stupid +fwd scouts or their demo, and you want to finish off you uber before you push, even if the other team is equally grinding... dont, just push.

PS: all this relates to push maps, A/D has similarities but also requires a generally different outlook.
PSS: sorry about hijack, but your post put a lot of ideas in my head i felt compelled to divulge.
Last edited by No Mercy; 10-04-2010 at 04:34.
#12
Old 10-04-2010, 04:55
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Teams can be fine on 5cp maps when the adv/disadv is easily kept track of leading to a push/pull metagame where teams will push with advantage or fallback and delay until they dont have a disadvantage. But what i find is this mindframe is different for A/D maps like gravelpit. Should you be using utility players or suicide runs to get picks and gain yourself an advantage and then push with it? Or should you push everybody as a team? Should you be falling back and conceding a point when you have a big enough disadvantage? Or should you try and delay the point and lower your disadvantage by getting a key pick on important players?
Ill probably get a fuck off post lol.
I find that A/D maps are much more difficult than 5cp ones, even though the advantage/disadvantage principle still rings true. Are there different considerations when it comes to A/D maps over 5cp maps?

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy View Post
PS: all this relates to push maps, A/D has similarities but also requires a generally different outlook.
Outlook being?
Last edited by Cole; 10-04-2010 at 04:58.
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#13
Old 10-04-2010, 08:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geomanis View Post
Teams can be fine on 5cp maps when the adv/disadv is easily kept track of leading to a push/pull metagame where teams will push with advantage or fallback and delay until they dont have a disadvantage. But what i find is this mindframe is different for A/D maps like gravelpit. Should you be using utility players or suicide runs to get picks and gain yourself an advantage and then push with it?
I will give my opinion which COULD DEFINITELY be wrong or different to what other people think.

If you are attacking B on Gravelpit and both teams have even uber you want to gain some sort of positional or player advantage before you uber. Using uber straight into the sentry with demoman then ending with bad positioning and dying is not very good. If you are able to gain control of the roof with your soldiers and take out sentry without using uber with demo (is possible in every common spot people put sentries) then you are able to use your uber with a player/position advantage or sometimes even force enemy team to leave the point and you retain uber.

If you have recently failed an unsuccessful push and everybody is respawning you then have a 40 second window while combo grinds uber for rest of team to attempt 1 or 2 suicide attempts. This is much better then simply waiting around and if you are able to get a crucial medic/demo/engineer+sentry pick that puts you in a great position. Just do not do suicides when you are close to uber as you want to be pushing as soon as you get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geomanis View Post
Or should you push everybody as a team? Should you be falling back and conceding a point when you have a big enough disadvantage? Or should you try and delay the point and lower your disadvantage by getting a key pick on important players?
Keeping your medic alive is the key to being able to defend C after losing A/B, if your medic dies late in the defense while you are trying to slow them down or retake then you pretty much concede C. If you watch CSM finals of -A- vs << on gravelpit you will see us lose our entire team on a retake and consequently lose point C without even a contest. It comes down to whether or not you feel you can do the retake or continue to defend based on players that are alive and uber %. On retakes it is important to know how many players they have on cap point (usually 2 scouts) and this gives you a player advantage on retake as long as you don't walk into stickies (think of a retake as though you are attacking the point).

Quote:
Originally Posted by geomanis View Post
I find that A/D maps are much more difficult than 5cp ones, even though the advantage/disadvantage principle still rings true. Are there different considerations when it comes to A/D maps over 5cp maps?
A/D maps are generally easier because the amount of situations that can arise are limited, although mistakes on these maps lead to bigger consequences. There are definitely differences in considerations especially when playing against/with sentry guns and the great uses of height for heavies and more that i can't think of atm.
Last edited by amd; 10-04-2010 at 10:13.
#14
Old 10-04-2010, 13:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amD View Post
I will give my opinion which COULD DEFINITELY be wrong or different to what other people think.

If you are attacking B on Gravelpit and both teams have even uber you want to gain some sort of positional or player advantage before you uber. Using uber straight into the sentry with demoman then ending with bad positioning and dying is not very good. If you are able to gain control of the roof with your soldiers and take out sentry without using uber with demo (is possible in every common spot people put sentries) then you are able to use your uber with a player/position advantage or sometimes even force enemy team to leave the point and you retain uber.

If you have recently failed an unsuccessful push and everybody is respawning you then have a 40 second window while combo grinds uber for rest of team to attempt 1 or 2 suicide attempts. This is much better then simply waiting around and if you are able to get a crucial medic/demo/engineer+sentry pick that puts you in a great position. Just do not do suicides when you are close to uber as you want to be pushing as soon as you get it.
great post by amd, the other option is to just attack the site. After a failed push you have two options: SUICDE or simply repush again as a team from long / short

Quote:
Originally Posted by amD View Post
Keeping your medic alive is the key to being able to defend C after losing A/B, if your medic dies late in the defense while you are trying to slow them down or retake then you pretty much concede C. If you watch CSM finals of -A- vs << on gravelpit you will see us lose our entire team on a retake and consequently lose point C without even a contest. It comes down to whether or not you feel you can do the retake or continue to defend based on players that are alive and uber %. On retakes it is important to know how many players they have on cap point (usually 2 scouts) and this gives you a player advantage on retake as long as you don't walk into stickies (think of a retake as though you are attacking the point).
amd made such an important point - you basically have player advantage to some degree if they have scouts capping and heavys forward defending when trying to retake B. No sentry as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amD View Post
A/D maps are generally easier because the amount of situations that can arise are limited, although mistakes on these maps lead to bigger consequences. There are definitely differences in considerations especially when playing against/with sentry guns and the great uses of height for heavies and more that i can't think of atm.
Push maps are harder more situations + rollouts
Last edited by Bowt; 10-04-2010 at 13:35.
#15
Old 10-04-2010, 13:33
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I found the best way to learn how to play was to sit down with a div 1 caller and watch a POV demo of theirs consisting asking "why you doing that?".

Don't forget to actually right down their answers or at the very least record the conversation.
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#16
Old 10-04-2010, 18:03
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great write up bowt!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowt View Post
DO NOT CHANGE YOUR MOUSE SENSITIVITY / CROSSHAIR COLOUR / CROSSHAIR SIZE / DIFFERENT MOUSE

i find it easier to change my sensitivities between hitscan and projectile classes. generally for demoman/solj i'm at about 2 or 2.2 and then for hitscan im down near 1.5 or 1.6
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#17
Old 10-04-2010, 20:18
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Good read
#18
Old 11-04-2010, 12:50
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good work to all involved in this
#19
Old 11-04-2010, 14:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniin View Post
great write up bowt!

i find it easier to change my sensitivities between hitscan and projectile classes. generally for demoman/solj i'm at about 2 or 2.2 and then for hitscan im down near 1.5 or 1.6
i do believe he is referring to the 16 yr olds who change their sense every 2nd day
#20
Old 11-04-2010, 14:52
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paging happychef (who changes his mouse/sens/pad every 4 minutes)
#21
Old 11-04-2010, 18:22
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The whole idea of understanding the game doubly comes into play for teams who might have a setback in a push and then happen to freeze up. In a team game mistakes and unexpected situations will happen. You see this happen a lot in the situations when both teams are in situations of limited players - say a 4v3 with no medic on either teams on granary mid or something along these lines. Players will excuse mistakes often with a reason of "well you didn't call what you were doing", when in actual fact 99% of the issue is some of the players - or maybe all, don't grasp the situation enough to know what is most beneficial in the first place.

In particular it feels like a lot of the situations in TF2 atm you see a lot the following - players not recognising positional advantages and how these can be used, players aiming to perform risky and greedy players that get them killed when they have a workable/decent advantage, and the lack of willingness to push without uber. That last one in particular creates very stop-start static gameplay and not a lot of subtlety. A lot of this should be fairly obvious and second nature; yet it is not. I'm guilty of all these problems and many more, as are other players who are much better, I'm sure.
Last edited by HaXxorIzed; 11-04-2010 at 18:25.
#22
Old 13-04-2010, 18:51
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good thread, thanks
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#23
Old 18-04-2010, 21:11
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bloody fantastic thread.

example1.mp4 link is down though.
#24
Old 19-04-2010, 09:56
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solid read
followup comments also very helpful

would like to thank posters' sense of maturity (or perhaps just the admins) for keeping thread free of bullshit
#25
Old 19-04-2010, 17:22
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I'll reupload example1.mp4 to megaupload/RS tonight (unless someone gets to it before me)
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#26
Old 20-04-2010, 01:29
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im surprised more people haven't asked questions about what they/their team should do in certain situations!
#27
Old 20-04-2010, 03:43
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Seems i lost the file. Sorry! >_>
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#28
Old 20-04-2010, 07:51
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bowt

what is the best course of action when pushing into last blands with only %20 unber advantage?
#29
Old 20-04-2010, 13:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramby View Post
bowt

what is the best course of action when pushing into last blands with only %20 unber advantage?
jump everyone at them and multi uber as much as possible but ensure you kill that medic, thats one way to do it :3
#30
Old 21-04-2010, 19:26
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example1.mp4

http://rapidshare.com/files/378353269/example1.mp4.html
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