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#1
Old 16-06-2011, 21:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask A Question Forum
Hi

Theres been a lot of heated discussion lately about which medic melee weapon gives the biggest advantage in competitive play between the ubersaw and the bonesaw.

So I was wondering is +25% uber charge on hit + 0.96s swingtime + taunt (ubersaw) > 0.8s swingtime (bonesaw) ?

tnx
#2
Old 16-06-2011, 21:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Dad
The heated discussion pretty much sums up both sides of the argument. Of course, the main lesson that should be derived from that thread is that your medic should never be put into a situation where he needs to use his bone/ubersaw.

With that in mind, my personal perference is that if I, as the primary soldier, or my collective team has failed to protect the medic, would prefer the very slight chance that my medic can land a hit with the ubersaw and possibly gain uber from it.

Of course, many question in what situation that may happen? Well, badlands and granary rollouts can be a model situation, with the medic reaching mid at 70-75%. If your team gets wiped, and the medic manages to retreat, he may get the chance of picking a hit and running away with uber.

In regards to C4C, the level of play should be high enough that any chasing scout would pick your medic off with ease.
#3
Old 16-06-2011, 21:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feresar
I dont know what thread you are reading, but there is no talk about which is the bigger advantage, its clear Ubersaw is superior in almost everyway; the time between swings is its only downside and since, in the vast majority of situations, you only need that one hit to get your uber, its fine. If you find you are needing to kill more than one target, its not an unlocks fault, its the teams fault for allowing this situation to happen
#4
Old 16-06-2011, 21:07
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To expand the thread from just bonesaw vs ubersaw:

Any mentor opinions on (in terms of suitability for use in a comp medic's loadout):

blutsauger vs needlegun vs crossbow (http://www.tf2wiki.net/wiki/Medic) ?
Currently needlegun is the most popular in aus tf2 (since the -2hp/sec passive regen nerf to blutsauger a while back). But crossbow has been starting to gain popularity as well (and not just for the "epic middy" potential).
#5
Old 16-06-2011, 21:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy
Blutsauger is terrible, -2 regen is such a huge difference.

In my mind there is no debate that the needlegun is a superior weapon to the crossbow in their own right. A medic that can aim their needles can without too mcuh difficulty out duel a scout who has a low scattergun ammo count, whereas the crossbow offers considerably less self defense potential - and lets face it the times your not holding out your medigun are 95% when you need to protect yourself. The potential for getting off clutch arrows is not worth it.

The real question is whether you would rather a decent weapon for self defense, or +1 regen. If your team protects your well enough then perhaps the regen is for you, personally i wouldnt though.
#6
Old 16-06-2011, 21:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Mercy
If your team protects your well enough then perhaps the regen is for you, personally i wouldnt though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feresar
This is probably the most important point, if your team and yourself are perfectly capable of negating most attempts on your life, then the regen is perfect since it can mean you dont need to stop for hp often or detour to get a pack. However if you find yourself fighting players alot, needles might be the way to go.
#7
Old 16-06-2011, 21:19
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crossbow and amputator always
#8
Old 16-06-2011, 23:16
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Is there any credence behind using certain loadouts for certain maps?

Like the blutsauger on maps with medium sized, easy to reach health packs like Badlands or Freight (regen less necessary) and the needle gun on maps with small or difficult/time consuming to reach health packs like Gravel Pit or Granary (regen more helpful)?

Or is that just getting pointlessly technical?
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#9
Old 17-06-2011, 00:16
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Blutsauger is so horrible, don't even consider it.

Personally I prefer to use needles and ubersaw.. why?

My problem with the crossbow is that if I'm trying to fight off a scout, then I only have ONE chance to hit him, and then it takes like 4 seconds (?) to reload, and by that time, the scout has probably already killed you (assuming you're playing against a good scout like rep).
When I'm using the needles, I can spam the corners behind me, and if the scout chooses to follow, they will automatically take at least 40-50 damage, which in a lot of cases may be enough to deter them away.

The needle gun holds 40x needles, which means you have a total of ~* 40 CHANCES TO HIT THE ENEMY *~, as opposed to the one shot with the crossbow. Each needle does 10-15 (?) damage, so if you do the math, (10 -> 15) x 40 = 400 - 600 damage potential damage, which is enough to kill anything buffed.

Because I don't use the crossbow, then it doesn't really matter what I use the melee weapon. If I equip the amputator, then I'm not going to benefit from the '+1 regen set bonus', and I'm never ever going to risk taunting to heal all of my teammates in a scrim / match. So I just use the ubersaw for the reasons mentioned above - if I'm close to uber, and I manage to hit something, I'll use uber and have a much higher % of survival

Quote:
Originally Posted by badminton View Post
Is there any credence behind using certain loadouts for certain maps?

Like the blutsauger on maps with medium sized, easy to reach health packs like Badlands or Freight (regen less necessary) and the needle gun on maps with small or difficult/time consuming to reach health packs like Gravel Pit or Granary (regen more helpful)?

Or is that just getting pointlessly technical?
Blight.TheFragile actually posted an MGE tutorial on this particular topic. If i can remember correctly, the main point was that using the crossbow on maps such as badlands (large open areas) can be very beneficial, because it is quite viable to whip out our crossbow and fire an arrow into the clustered enemy team on rollout, for example, dealing as much as ~70 damage to a single player.

Hope this helps!
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#10
Old 17-06-2011, 00:24
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i really dont think it matters, i've always thought the highest regen was best and from there its preference, ie. meersy likes using the needles and bonobo likes the crossbow

edit: or do you only get the extra regen from crossbow? (i have no idea)
Last edited by termo-old; 17-06-2011 at 00:25.
#11
Old 17-06-2011, 00:29
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You get an extra +1 regen per second using the crossbow and amputator at the same time.
#12
Old 17-06-2011, 00:42
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if ur team sucks use needles and ubersaw i.e the opposite of bonobo
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#13
Old 17-06-2011, 01:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki;
The Medic is the only class capable of regenerating health over time; the longer a Medic stays out of combat, the faster his health will recover. A damaged Medic will regenerate health at a rate of 3 HP per second, which scales up over the following ten seconds to a maximum of 6 HP per second, (though carrying the Blutsauger reduces the regeneration rate from 3-6 to 1-4, and the Crusader's Crossbow and Amputator together will raise it by 1.)
Imo having +4 instead of +3 regen in combat is actually not that big of a deal. Both give you ample health regain outside of combat when increased, and neither will save you from point blank nuking.

I remember when medics actually required good movement to avoid spam because +1 was the combat regen rate flat.
#14
Old 17-06-2011, 02:05
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While we're into the nitty gritty, while it's a comparitively minor thing (because 95%+ of the game a medic will be using a healgun anyway), the crossbow is not effected by the ramp applied to the healing beam guns. i.e. If a target has taken any damage in the last 10s they only heal at @24hp/sec with the medi/kritz guns, which then ramps up (link). The amount the crossbow heals is based only on the distance the arrow travels (min 75hp, max 150hp according to tf2wiki).

While this info is hardly game-breaking, it's another small benefit of the crossbow which (as I said before) seems to be gaining popularity. In that context, a couple of planned (i.e. not trying to clutch middy heal someone) situations I've seen it used are: when just getting out of a combat situation (i.e. example was iM just won granary mid and were capping the point) bonobo might use it on a lit player before switching back to healbeam.

The other was if a player had taken a lot of damage near a contested choke (soldier near badlands corner was the example I recall seeing) when they've backed out of corner, bonobo might get a medium ranged arrow onto the soldier (who stands still expecting it) before the going back to healbeam.

Again, not match changing stuff in itself, but small 'extra' things that you see the All Australian medic doing
Last edited by hatchet; 17-06-2011 at 02:08.
#15
Old 18-06-2011, 17:02
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Pretty much what Meersy said, though I've been using the crossbow a bit more lately. It really depends - if you're being chased by a scout you're far better off with needles, and it's personal preference/experience whether sacrificing this is worth it for the odd crossbow heal/spam.

As NoMercy said, the +1 bonus for crossbow + amputator isn't really a dealbreaker, although if you're using the crossbow anyway you might as well go for it unless clutch ubersaw hits are something which regularly happens in your team (lol).
Last edited by Darien; 18-06-2011 at 17:03.
#16
Old 19-06-2011, 02:39
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simple terms.

want your team to stay alive longer? use amp and xbow.

want to get some inconsequential kill on a scout who has just fucked up your team and attempting to finish the job with you? use needles + bonesaw

play pub? use bluts + ubersaw
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#17
Old 19-06-2011, 03:08
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wait, why would you take bonesaw over ubersaw?

apart from the swing speed there's no drawback right?
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#18
Old 19-06-2011, 12:32
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ok..pre c4c2 you'd go ubersaw
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#19
Old 19-06-2011, 18:11
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crunch qft without actually quoting his post

dno why there's a discussion on this - you can't even choose your weapons in c4c for a start anywho.

then again if it's for owl, it still doesn't matter. amp + xbow beats all
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#20
Old 25-06-2011, 14:59
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New medic weapons: is using the Overdose on rollout a good move (getting to mid faster, etc)? Does any of them beat using medieval medic?
#21
Old 25-06-2011, 16:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptDropbear View Post
New medic weapons: is using the Overdose on rollout a good move (getting to mid faster, etc)? Does any of them beat using medieval medic?
Way too early to speculate on this but I'm pretty excited at the prospects of the medic move speed and potential quick-fix tactics (move at the speed of any faster heal target? does he have to be damaged?). I'm not the biggest fan of being able to see enemies health, when the vita-saw was supposed to have it I was a bit confused at the medic being able to see enemy health like he's going to do something about it? Maybe I'm missing something.

Anyway interested to see others thoughts on this as well, for now amp and crossbow are still the best.
#22
Old 25-06-2011, 16:49
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you have to actually mouse-over opponents to see their health so its probably easier just to call damage depending on how busy the med is with heal rotations
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#23
Old 25-06-2011, 18:29
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Yeah I just gave the solemn oath a go in a pub and unless you have pro sniper aim (I don't) you can only really get a decent look at enemy health from close/medium range. And that's when you're mostly checking your own team for heal targets. At long range almost everyone will have full health anyway. (When you're trying to escape with needles you have aim ahead of your target too so you can't even check how much health is left on people chasing you. Crossbow might be different.)

Could be useful with a bit of practice but for now, like madjack said, it'd probably be easier to call damage output and save the melee slot for the healing set or the clutch ubersaw hits.

Might make it more useful if you can call out weak targets if you have a Sniper. But then you make yourself visible to enemy Snipers and spam.
Last edited by badminton; 25-06-2011 at 18:31.
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#24
Old 25-06-2011, 20:02
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solemn oath = useless
quick fix = as i said in another thread, MAYBE useful in 1/100 situations (constantly attacking a last point/gpit c or something like that, i dont see it working in defense ever)
new needlegun = potential.
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#25
Old 25-11-2011, 12:37
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Just a quick note,

I think we give most scouts too much credit here.
Alot of the time when i find my self in 1v1 with a scout, or even 2v1 the scout(s) is not going to kill me right away. As in, with proper movement skills you can essentially dodge long enough to get 2 arrows into him.

eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lohCaOdvyFk
(not the best example, but you get the idea)

So what i'm getting at is it really depends on how well your movement is as a medic, if you find you cant move as well then sure, use the syringe gun. But i find i win situations (like above) more then enough to say that the xbow and amp is for me.
#26
Old 25-11-2011, 12:46
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you play against shit scouts
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#27
Old 25-11-2011, 13:01
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I'm sure the crossbow is pretty good in division 4. But against good scouts, you will have significantly less chance of surviving. Bonobo runs crossbow because he can rely on his team to deal with scouts or because he is always in a position where scouts cannot attack him.

No other team has been able to do this with success.
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#28
Old 25-11-2011, 13:05
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Oh, dont get me wrong. I understand that. It was just my two cents
#29
Old 25-11-2011, 21:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madjack View Post
you play against shit scouts
This.

If you manage to get two crossbow bolts in decent scout before they kill you, you were incredibly lucky.
#30
Old 25-11-2011, 21:37
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All righty then.
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