ozfortress - team fortress 2 in australia

Wednesday, December 14, 2011
12:24 PM - anon: hi bowt
12:24 PM - anon: are u there ?
12:24 PM - bowt: hey mate
12:24 PM - bowt: yep
12:24 PM - anon: hey can i ask few questions on the article u wrote on uber disadvantages and player advantages ?
12:25 PM - bowt: definately man
12:25 PM - anon: alright thanks =D
12:25 PM - anon: 1) scout move up and combo cap.
12:25 PM - anon: is is only for teams with good scouts ?
12:25 PM - anon: is it*
12:26 PM - bowt: no not really because you should assume your scouts are good or trying to become good
12:26 PM - bowt: for example
12:26 PM - anon: i dont really undertand the logic behind
12:26 PM - bowt: situation : you win the middle of GRANARY and have a SOLIDER SCOUT AND MEDIC alive
12:26 PM - bowt: the other team is retreating with a SOLDIER + MEDIC
12:26 PM - bowt: lets say you have your scout cap and SOLDIER + MEDIC push
12:27 PM - bowt: they are going to be able to do nothing against the other teams SOLDIER + MEDIC + ***RESPAWNERS***
12:27 PM - anon: oh i see !
12:27 PM - bowt: infact they RISK losing uber and gaining absolutely nothing
12:27 PM - bowt: lets say the situation was different
12:27 PM - anon: so it's not for situations where they have more than 2 up right ?
12:27 PM - bowt: you win middle of GRANARY and have a SOLDIER SOLDIER DEMOMAN SCOUT MEDIC alive and they are retreating with a SOLDIER + MEDIC
12:27 PM - anon: like situation : we got 2 scout+combo at mid
12:27 PM - anon: still combo cap ?
12:27 PM - bowt: in that situation it would be good for the combo to push
12:28 PM - bowt: and have the scout cap
12:28 PM - bowt: ya I probably would
12:28 PM - bowt: the scouts can do alot of things like
12:28 PM - bowt: perhaps they can attack the combo and get uber advantage (sometimes happends when you can put on pressure instantly)
12:28 PM - bowt: the other good move to make is
12:28 PM - bowt: lets say its granary
12:29 PM - bowt: you run LEFT into the stairs and then try to kill RESPAWNING players
12:29 PM - bowt: you know when the enemy teams demoman is going to respawn
12:29 PM - bowt: so you just drop on him and go for the kill
12:29 PM - bowt: ANY kill you get its good
12:29 PM - bowt: whereas if you die it doesnt really matter nothings going to be gained / lost
12:29 PM - anon: oh ok so we time the demomsn's respawn ?
12:29 PM - anon: how do we know the exact timing ?
12:29 PM - bowt: well as a scout you would press tab
12:29 PM - bowt: and you would see if hes alive
12:29 PM - anon: oh oh
12:30 PM - bowt: you would know roughly where he is
12:30 PM - anon: yea sry
12:30 PM - bowt: when you get good at reading the game this isnt that difficult to do
12:30 PM - bowt: the scout pushing forward
12:30 PM - bowt: can make heaps of good moves
12:30 PM - bowt: hide in the stairs and try to ninja kill
12:30 PM - anon: ahh i seee
12:30 PM - bowt: hide somewhere and try to get the combo to pop
12:30 PM - bowt: go for respawners
12:30 PM - bowt: just depends
12:30 PM - bowt: especially good on badlands
12:30 PM - bowt: you can do heaps of gay shit
12:31 PM - anon: so only when there's 1 scout alive do we do that ?
12:31 PM - anon: what if we have 2 scouts alive at mid ?
12:31 PM - bowt: ummm just depends on the situation
12:31 PM - bowt: 2 scouts + combo?
12:31 PM - anon: yup
12:31 PM - bowt: both scouts could try to do something
12:31 PM - bowt: and combo cap
12:31 PM - bowt: 2 scouts can pop a combo alot of the time
12:31 PM - anon so essentially the theory behind is scouts is more agile than combo right ?
12:32 PM - bowt: no
12:32 PM - bowt: its because the combo cant DO anything
12:32 PM - bowt: SOLDIER + MEDIC vs SOLDIER + MEDIC + RESPAWNERS
12:32 PM - bowt: scout can do more stuff
12:32 PM - anon: oh ok yea
12:32 PM - anon: even if their demo is alive ?
12:32 PM - bowt: huh?
12:32 PM - anon: both scouts can go in?
12:32 PM - bowt: sure
12:33 PM - bowt: depends
12:33 PM - bowt: if I had scout demoman soldier medic
12:33 PM - anon: because i find situation where the enemy falls when they still have 3 or 4 up
12:33 PM - bowt: maybe have a scout cap
12:33 PM - anon: just so they can push back with uber
12:33 PM - bowt: explain the situation again
12:33 PM - bowt: in more detail

12:34 PM - anon: so combo can push up only with the help of demo correct ?
12:34 PM - bowt: DEPENDS
12:34 PM - anon: and if we dont have our demo with us scouts push up ?
12:34 PM - bowt: nope
12:34 PM - bowt: depends on whats happening
12:35 PM - anon: so can u tell me what's the significance of they have a scout/demo up with the combo when they fall ?
12:36 PM - anon: when *
12:36 PM - bowt: explain the situation
12:36 PM - anon: ok they fall with a scout + combo we got 2scouts and combo
12:37 PM - anon: will the scout pose a threat to the scouts going in to pop the med's uber?

12:37 PM - bowt: 12:37 PM - anon: will the scout pose a threat to the scouts going in to pop the med's uber?
12:37 PM - bowt: yoiur scouts might not try to make the other teams medic pop uber
12:37 PM - bowt: and yes...
12:37 PM - bowt: obviously the other scout will be annoying to deal with
12:37 PM - bowt: just depends whats going on
12:37 PM - bowt: sometimes cant achieve anything
12:37 PM - bowt: som,etimes can get behind for respawners
12:37 PM - bowt: sometimes can hide
12:37 PM - bowt: sometimes can go for the pop
12:37 PM - bowt: depends whats happening
12:37 PM - bowt: but yes obviously the scout will be annoying because he is going to be defending against that sort of thing
12:38 PM - bowt: one thing I would definately NOT do is CAP with both scouts
12:38 PM - bowt: and then have the combo (soldier + medic) push into the other teams soldier + scout + medic
12:38 PM - bowt: anyway
12:38 PM - bowt: youi think about it
12:38 PM - bowt: because it takes alot of time to understanding
12:38 PM - bowt: trust me
12:38 PM - anon: yes i know because in asia we do that alot
12:38 PM - anon: both scouts cap
12:42 PM - anon: sry my steam crashed all of a sudden
12:42 PM - anon: so u were saying in most situations u wouldn't want both scouts to cap
12:42 PM - anon: correct ?
12:43 PM - bowt: no I said it depends on the situation
12:44 PM - anon: sry i know im a little slow to learn these but can you maybe tell me once more in which situation would you want the scouts to cap
12:45 PM - bowt: I have already explained it
12:45 PM - bowt: read over what I have written

What do you guys think?

you got it right

a combo pushing up has the negative chance of the soldier dying, fucking over the medic, or the medic dying, fucking over the team.

a scout pushing up has the negative chance of a scout dying, not really putting you at a massive disadvantage.

you are capping middle and can most likely defend your disadvantage

bowt's right but teams need to be thinking about this outside of mid battles also, what each player can do in specific scenarios - and how your team can move around the map pending what classes are dead on what team.

having 2 scout advantage is huge even outside of pushing cp2 after a mid fight.

Golden rules are stupid; dont go away and make a table of every ally and enemy class combination with a solution on who pushes for it!

Who pushes or cap is often as much about if your in position, your health, the map, and momentum than anything.

For example with the soldier medic scout vs soldier medic example: what if there is no momentum and you run off forward as a scout only to have the opposing combo rely on their better respawns to repush with uber and block the mid cap. I would want to be sure they're retreating (no just pressing tab) before i left my team to move forward.

As the retreating team looking at the cap multiplier is critical in evaluating what your opponents are doing wrt pushing forward.

I probably press tab at least 2+ times every minute to check whos alive or dead. The scoreboard is a resource too!

I don't think player skill should be completely ignored when making decisions. If I can't play against their scouts or combo because they outskill me then I am going to adjust my strategy based on that.

You should always assume that your competition is equal in skill or better than you Roflcat otherwise you're going to let fear and hesitation ruin a lot of your decisions. Never lose confidence in your own ability.

To summarize bowts post:

Yeah not saying bowt is wrong ofc, and I must of read it the wrong way cause yeah I always try to make decisions assuming my opponents are better than me (and not always because it is true 90% of the time :P).

I know that sounds hypocritical to my previous post but I can't really word it better, I guess what I am trying to say is I assume the enemy team is good, but if I know I can beat a scout then I can make adjustments to my playstyle to lock him down better while still not putting myself in situations where he can get backup or luckout and double meatshot me.

Good read, thanks Bowt.

This approach to the game was covered in his how to get good thread, this is more examples+reasoning which should help people

thanks for that Bowt

The people assuming so much on the forum and then don't apply it in game amazes me.

If you are in a good position and think you have enough health to kill more players after winning the mid fight... let your team know that you are going to keep pushing.
If you are too low or you are in a horrible position and feel like others could do a better job from your team say you will stay back and cap...

It doesn't take much to communicate that. If your team cant adapt to something as basic as that then they won't ever be considered "good" anyway.

p.s it takes something as little as "who is capping" if you really destroy someone at mid to quickly move ahead as a team. Usually experienced/better players will allow their team to go ahead early buy saying "you guys go I'll cap". Those 3 or 4 words help so very much in making sure everyone is on the same page.

To add to this don't see enough medics adequately buffing scouts once the rollout has been won. They tend to be preferring to heal low soldiers or demomen who are unlikely to be dying within the next 5 seconds that could be spent topping up 2 scouts.

Also just because scouts should be pushing doesn't mean they should be suiciding into the medic. Sometimes its okay to have a look before you commit.

may i add that a scout going forward doesn't always need to kill a respawner or hide somewhere gay..
Putting down 1/2 cap time on the next point and then retreating back before their team spawns puts a lot of pressure for when you start muscling the point.

This is wrong for two reasons

1) its impossible to cap vs a soldier + medic (in the situation I used it was a soldier + medic retreating)

If you wipe the other team (kill the other teams medic) you will be pushing forward with combo and letting the scout cap

2) by the time you attack warehouse with your team it will be a situation when you are going to work the stairs rather than work the point. Muscling the point in even situations attacking warehouse is a RISKY move and it will only be successful consistently if you have superior heavy class players.

In the even situation (event of scout getting no advantage and attacking warehouse even players) you will work stairs

I dont like the assumption of teams that oh we can just muscle the point off the other team

as if the other team is just crap they will just let you muscle them off point no problem just let their combo push you off

Did i say the scout was trying to cap vs a soldier+medic? No

if your scout+solly+med is up and mid is 3/4 capped, other team has x3 respawners heading towards warehouse.. a scout going forward and putting time on the cap is more effective than your combo going forward and putting the same time but running the risk of losing uber advantage.

Having that next point 2/4, 3/4 capped is a major advantage, especially when you already have uber advantage. It's an alternative to your scout going forward and playing a chance card.

Having the threat of the point almost being capped is what makes it easier to muscle.

I'll gladly pop your uber every time your combo pushes up without the scout. Then we'll defend warehouse without your uber

My question is how do you plan to get even a smidgen of cap time on the point? Any pocket soldier/medic (or combo, demo could be included as opposed to soldier) with half a brain will not run to the back left corner when they almost have uber, espeically when they know a scout is coming (which they will because they will see the cap time reduce) and you will probably be a free kill if you go near the cap.

When you have uber advantage there really isn't much point putting time on the cap anyway. Regardless you will probably be still waiting for spawns if you lost any in mid - a scout may be better off suiciding if he sees the opportunity to get a priority pick (demo,medic, MAYBE SOLDIER DEPENDING) especially since by the time you cap warehouse the respawn wave with the scout will have occurred and he'll be back and ready to fight for the last point.

Your post is pretty much assuming that the opposing team is retarded and doesn't know how to act in most of the games simple situations which is a wrong assumption to have (especially for newer players/teams).

A lot of the content in this thread is merely grasping at straws and theorising - there's no one answer to this situation. It can vary depending how your team plays, how strong player x's aim/dm/smarts are, etc. "Scouts push, heavies cap" is a very general, broad strategy to use that CAN work in a lot of cases if you have NOT killed their medic + 1 or 2.

[echoing subtitled's post]

If you disagree, then thats your opinion.

However, there is nothing wrong with an alternative.

We're not at 'serious' yet, but lets not push it. Play the ball, not the man.

Please keep the entertaining flamewars to General Discussion.