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#61
Old 7-05-2011, 12:37
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Sorry I was thinking generally again and trying to throw several ideas into a single post.

Specifically for Gravelpit Scout over Sniper on defence for sure. Snipers are usually pathetic on defence unless they're amazing good shots and even then I would go with a different class.
Last edited by Mr. E; 7-05-2011 at 12:56.
#62
Old 7-05-2011, 14:03
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Originally Posted by aporia View Post
Switching to sniper on C defence is a dreadful idea --> tiny window of opportunity, in order to get a decent pick you need to be in a retarded position --> no effectiveness during an uber push --> no mobility. Just play scout and deal with their scouts / mop the ground / push their sniper if he is causing you that much grief (after/during ubers). You have so many more options and are generally more effective.
Ah yes I remember bowt getting mighty upset about me playing sniper on gpit C defences. Contrary to what you've been told / think, it's actually good to sometimes have scout go sniper just before they attack and snipe from spawn, having a shot or two then switching to scout. If you get a kill - great, nothing more you can ask, if you purposely go for a full charged body shot on any heavy class - great, if you miss and do nothing - you don't really lose anything. The important thing is to not sit on sniper and constantly take shots but to switch back to scout.

There is very little risk to you and if played right, a big chance of reward.
#63
Old 7-05-2011, 14:21
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Originally Posted by aporia View Post
Don't sit your medic where he can be easily shot and just spam the doors where the sniper is coming out and it's gg
This. He should never get a chance to get a decent shot off if the rest of your team is doing their job.

EDIT: Good point by rep, if you're not going to be doing much during the ubers anyway, you might as well try to get some bodyshots or try for a lucky pick before swapping back.
Last edited by Darien; 7-05-2011 at 14:23.
#64
Old 7-05-2011, 14:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rep View Post
Ah yes I remember bowt getting mighty upset about me playing sniper on gpit C defences. Contrary to what you've been told / think, it's actually good to sometimes have scout go sniper just before they attack and snipe from spawn, having a shot or two then switching to scout. If you get a kill - great, nothing more you can ask, if you purposely go for a full charged body shot on any heavy class - great, if you miss and do nothing - you don't really lose anything. The important thing is to not sit on sniper and constantly take shots but to switch back to scout.

There is very little risk to you and if played right, a big chance of reward.
I like this.
#65
Old 7-05-2011, 15:18
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Sniper isn't a class you'd want to sit on for long periods of time in any case, definitely a switch to, take a shot and switch back kinda class.
#66
Old 7-05-2011, 15:23
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But you often don't have the luxury of being able to swap back and forth between classes as easily as on gpit c defence.
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#67
Old 7-05-2011, 15:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rep View Post
Ah yes I remember bowt getting mighty upset about me playing sniper on gpit C defences. Contrary to what you've been told / think, it's actually good to sometimes have scout go sniper just before they attack and snipe from spawn, having a shot or two then switching to scout. If you get a kill - great, nothing more you can ask, if you purposely go for a full charged body shot on any heavy class - great, if you miss and do nothing - you don't really lose anything. The important thing is to not sit on sniper and constantly take shots but to switch back to scout.

There is very little risk to you and if played right, a big chance of reward.
we do this in iM with sheep sniper

crucial difference being the player doing the sniping
Last edited by Bowt; 7-05-2011 at 15:36.
#68
Old 7-05-2011, 15:44
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if you have a good sniper who can hit shots its definitely a strong move you can throw in there

whereas if the player cannot hit shots its better to use him as scout around C

http://www.youtube.com/user/noMsheep#p/u/17/KblbYx5kXHE
Last edited by hatchet; 7-05-2011 at 15:58. Reason: cleaned up thread.
#69
Old 7-05-2011, 16:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rep View Post
Ah yes I remember bowt getting mighty upset about me playing sniper on gpit C defences. Contrary to what you've been told / think, it's actually good to sometimes have scout go sniper just before they attack and snipe from spawn, having a shot or two then switching to scout. If you get a kill - great, nothing more you can ask, if you purposely go for a full charged body shot on any heavy class - great, if you miss and do nothing - you don't really lose anything. The important thing is to not sit on sniper and constantly take shots but to switch back to scout.

There is very little risk to you and if played right, a big chance of reward.
different idea though, this guy is talking about countering a sniper whose either hidden in A front or A right
#70
Old 7-05-2011, 18:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shock View Post
But you often don't have the luxury of being able to swap back and forth between classes as easily as on gpit c defence.
It's like running an Engineer/Scout on Viaduct, you gotta decide if it's worth it during spawn time. Basically it comes down to evaluating the situation, you need to decide whether you can make a difference as a Sniper in the next few minutes and IF NOT will it impact your team enough to put them at a huge disadvantage.

It's just weighing the odds, you see how your team has been doing overall (if they're raping it's not a big deal, if you're having a hard time it might be a big risk), you look at whether a Sniper can do something within a certain time slot, how the other team will react, whether your team can handle losing a Scout and how long it'll take you to die/respawn/change back.

Playing utility is an art, you really gotta be good at figuring out what class your team needs at that time.
Last edited by Mr. E; 7-05-2011 at 18:47.
#71
Old 7-05-2011, 18:54
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Engineer on viaduct? I haven't played the map enough but I haven't seen any teams use an engineer on it.

I think you should reread what i wrote. Actually I'll make it easy for you:

have scout go sniper just before they attack and snipe from spawn, having a shot or two then switching to scout.
The important thing is to not sit on sniper and constantly take shots but to switch back to scout.

fuuuuuck
#72
Old 7-05-2011, 19:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rep View Post
have scout go sniper just before they attack and snipe from spawn, having a shot or two then switching to scout.
Good idea.
#73
Old 7-05-2011, 21:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. E View Post
It's like running an Engineer/Scout on Viaduct, you gotta decide if it's worth it during spawn time. Basically it comes down to evaluating the situation, you need to decide whether you can make a difference as a Sniper in the next few minutes and IF NOT will it impact your team enough to put them at a huge disadvantage.

It's just weighing the odds, you see how your team has been doing overall (if they're raping it's not a big deal, if you're having a hard time it might be a big risk), you look at whether a Sniper can do something within a certain time slot, how the other team will react, whether your team can handle losing a Scout and how long it'll take you to die/respawn/change back.

Playing utility is an art, you really gotta be good at figuring out what class your team needs at that time.
you could have just wrote

"yeah pretty much, gotta decide in spawn time"

instead of that needlessly long post. More words != more content.
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#74
Old 7-05-2011, 23:18
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Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
I like this.
fanboy

As bowt said, it kinda depends on whether you can hit your shots or not. Even so, it's not hard to full bodyshot someone as they're pushing, making it essentially a 5v6 and you can switch back to scout - giving your team just a slight advantage (lucky the damn sydney sleeper is banned!)

Being able to frag someone when you're sniper as opposed to simply doing damage is obviously a plus
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#75
Old 8-05-2011, 00:42
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Originally Posted by Yuki View Post
Being able to frag someone is a plus
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#76
Old 8-05-2011, 13:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki View Post
fanboy

As bowt said, it kinda depends on whether you can hit your shots or not. Even so, it's not hard to full bodyshot someone as they're pushing, making it essentially a 5v6 and you can switch back to scout - giving your team just a slight advantage (lucky the damn sydney sleeper is banned!)

Being able to frag someone when you're sniper as opposed to simply doing damage is obviously a plus
this, you dont need to go for headshots 24/7, case in point: shenkz on yukon awhile back
#77
Old 15-05-2011, 11:20
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I guess I can just ask this here, I've seen some teams (very few but still some) use a very forward hold of C, essentially blocking the doors which you are going to push through, what is the best way to 'counter' this strategy as you cant really snipe them close range consistently and spys dont always work.
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#78
Old 15-05-2011, 11:32
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Originally Posted by Feresar View Post
this, you dont need to go for headshots 24/7, case in point: shenkz on yukon awhile back
...kaiza in our yukon match.was it 2 bodyshots for uber drops on povohat? saved us from an 80% disadv on one occasion..
rep and bowt said it best. if your sniper isnt stupid then the rewards can greatly outweigh the risk. this can go for just about any last point defence
Last edited by Crunch; 15-05-2011 at 11:38.
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#79
Old 15-05-2011, 15:40
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Originally Posted by Klinger View Post
I guess I can just ask this here, I've seen some teams (very few but still some) use a very forward hold of C, essentially blocking the doors which you are going to push through, what is the best way to 'counter' this strategy as you cant really snipe them close range consistently and spys dont always work.
they want to force you to pop away from the point and or kill as many people as possible, best way to counter this is either force the pop and just back out giving you uber advantage or sneak around the other side quickly

if they are forward holding alot, you can just pop out and send both soldiers up to the cap, keep your demo with the med, make sure your scouts get buffs before heading up. If they are holding forward, means less players on the cap, so they will have to send their own players up there after yours. This really all depends on what they are holding with and if/where the sentry is
#80
Old 16-05-2011, 09:46
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Originally Posted by Klinger View Post
I guess I can just ask this here, I've seen some teams (very few but still some) use a very forward hold of C, essentially blocking the doors which you are going to push through, what is the best way to 'counter'.
This strategy became semi-popular after Cbear(?) released a video of his team doing it on MGE. The linchpins of the forward hold are: the heavy on the tower & the sentry. Remove one of these two pins without ubering and the hold tends to collapse. Easiest way we hypothesized would to be use a utility from short B connector, spy or sniper, and remove the heavy or sentry before a push. The defending demoman is also isolated for the most part at the far B connector, and therefore is prone to being scout rushed from B without using uber. We noticed a soldier can, if unnoticed, bomb effectively from low right A connector straight onto the combo; the sentry actually acts to propel the jumper straight into the combo. Proper calling from the roamer guarding top right A connector should nullify this, though.

You could push from B and seemingly 'catch' the defending team out. Although the heavy on tower holds down anyone coming out of B long enough for the defending heavies to reposition themselves sentry-side. This really doesn't work though, you'll end up having popped uber without popping theirs, still have a sentry to deal with, and majority of the time not have a foothold on the tower.

That's as far as I got before I realized no one was running this strat regularly, if you come up with anything else let me know lol.
#81
Old 16-05-2011, 13:10
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iirc spadebox used to use a very forward hold at C with a scout roaming B, a mobile demoman/soldier covering the attacking combos entrance point, 2ndary support spamming the alternate entrance and a forward sentry on the hut. While this variation of Cbear's hold lacked a heavy and any semblance of point coverage, it proved effective at denying and poking attack and had fast intel on enemy attack approaches. However as described by mikeeeeh, it was a very technical hold that could easily collapse by any number of parts being properly disrupted - specifically removing the lynch-pin sentry, or catching the defending medic with a few well poked stickies forcing a poor uber ... etc.

Obviously a sniper will be much less efficient with a forward choke hold, however perhaps a spy will have a clear access to the demoman or medic or lone heavy? Bonk is also your friend, nothing messes with a demoman more than a invuln scout running past his face invuln. "Is he gonna stay point blank and 2 shot me, or just run away again to somwhere behind our lines? do we have anyone/thing that can quickly deal with him?"

Especially with a hold not focussed around bodies on the tower, but in general even then; i feel that teams should focus more on fragging key defenders first and disrupting a defensive structure and only then focus on getting cap time on the point. Even then, the majority of players should be prioritising denying defenders from getting to the point, kill or otherwise rather then speeding up the cap unnecessarily and risking splash damage themselves.

The majority of failures on defense can be attributed to a hold that has poor scouting intelligence (a mobile spotting 2ndary and scout is the best answer to this) and thus loses a critical player to some cheap frag or allows the enemy easy passage through a choke into equal battle position. Specifically on C alot of defensive failures can also be the result of teams using resonsive uber too late or poorly, forcing the defense to splinter to survive and failing to reform. Both for attack and defense it it important to treat a C battle slowly and keep as many heavies classes as practical together keeping the oppoenet suppressed, unable to do much other than retreat or die, while scouts can hopefully rampage around in the pit fragging, and then sneak up the spire to cap etc.
#82
Old 17-05-2011, 13:59
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i created and invented the forward C hold, cbear or whatever that is copied it or unintentionally came up with after me.

The strat is very technical and requires transitions between the choke points. The idea is not only to hold forward but to uber first and make them pop before even getting close. So essentially you don't let them push. Whoever attempting this strat always failed and decided instead to run a heavy on the point. speds.

The way to break it is to leak multiple ways at once. causing the defense to split. however even if done right, you need to hope the defending team doesn't know what the hold is and how to quickly adapt.

which means 1v1 dm
Last edited by eko; 17-05-2011 at 14:16.
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